Do Dissolved Bases Form Ion Pairs in Water?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether dissolved bases form ion pairs in water and the implications of this phenomenon for the behavior of electrolytic fluids in magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) generators. Participants explore the concept of ion pairing, its relevance to bases and acids, and the experimental results from a science fair project involving different electrolytic fluids.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the claim that ions form ion pairs in a way that makes them difficult to separate, asking for clarification on what "to separate them" means.
  • Another participant shares their experience with a science fair project, noting that a research scientist attributed low voltage production in MHD generators to hydroxides forming ion pairs with positive charges.
  • A participant challenges the explanation regarding ion pairing, stating that the K+OH- ion pair is neutral and questions the concentration of the solution used in the experiment.
  • One participant provides data on the association constant for Na+/OH- pairs, suggesting that about 15% of ions are paired in a 1M solution, while noting that the association constants for KOH, NaCl, and KCl were not determined.
  • The participant also mentions that 1M acetic acid is dissociated in less than 1%, indicating a significantly lower number of ions compared to NaCl or KCl solutions.
  • A later reply expresses gratitude for the information but questions the experimental results regarding acetic acid's performance in the MHD generator setup.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of ion pairing in the behavior of dissolved bases and acids, with no consensus reached on the implications for the experimental results. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the effects of ion pairing on voltage production in MHD generators.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the concentration of solutions and the specific conditions under which ion pairing may or may not be observed. The discussion also highlights the complexity of interpreting experimental results in the context of ion pairing.

clarinets
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I was told that when a base is dissolved in water, the ions form ion pairs so it is difficult to separate them completely; is this true? And if so, why wouldn't this apply to acids?
 
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clarinets said:
the ions form ion pairs so it is difficult to separate them completely

Without context (solvent?) it is hard to comment. What does it mean "to separate them"?

And yes, ion pairs are not limited to bases.
 
Well, my science fair project was to build a magnetohydrodynamic generator and to test different electrolytic fluids running through the generator. When I presented my project to a research scientist, he told me that my results (NaOH and KOH were by far the least-voltage producing, with the salts NaCl and KCl as well as acetic acid producing a medium amount and HCl producing a high amount) were due to the fact that the hydroxides form ion pairs with the positive charges, so that it is difficult to separate them. In case you are unfamiliar, the purpose of MHD generators is to separate the ions and send opposite charges to opposite electrode plates using a magnetic field.
 
There is something wrong with this explanation (it doesn't have to be entirely wrong, could be it is just some minor confusion). K+OH- ion pair doesn't have a positive charge - it is neutral.

Was it a water solution? Of what concentration? In water solutions - because of the high dielectric constant of water - ion pair creation is usually not observed, unless the solution is highly concentrated.
 
They were all 1 M, so low concentration.
 
I did some digging in my books. Association constant (which means an equilibrium constant for reaction of ion pair creation) for Na+/OH- pair is 0.2, that means in 1M solution about 15% of both ions will be paired. For KOH, NaCl and KCl solutions association constant was not determined (which probably means it was too small to be detected). 1M acetic acid is dissociated in less than 1%, so number of ions in the solution is 100 times smaller than in the NaCl or KCl case (and still orders of magnitude lower than in the case of NaOH).
 
Oh, thanks! That's really helpful. But my results indicated that acetic acid worked the third best our of all 6-what could have caused that?
 

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