Does a photon have energy if its mass is 0?

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    E=hf Mass
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the energy of photons in relation to their mass, specifically addressing the equation E=hf and its implications in the context of relativistic physics. Participants explore the differences between classical and relativistic definitions of energy and momentum, and how these relate to massless particles like photons.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how photons can have energy if their mass is zero, referencing the equation E=hf and attempting to relate it to classical kinetic energy.
  • Another participant clarifies that hf is not the kinetic energy of photons and cautions against equating different forms of energy.
  • A participant introduces the relativistic energy-momentum relationship, stating that for photons, E=pc, indicating they can possess energy and momentum despite having zero rest mass.
  • There is a challenge regarding the definition of momentum for massless particles, with a participant questioning the validity of p=mv in this context.
  • Another participant emphasizes that p=mv does not apply to massless objects, suggesting that it leads to nonsensical conclusions if taken literally.
  • A further clarification is made that p=mv is valid only in Newtonian physics and that the concept of relativistic mass is outdated and misleading.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, as there are competing views on the application of classical versus relativistic physics to the concept of photon energy and momentum. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of momentum for massless particles.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of mass and energy, as well as the unresolved nature of how classical mechanics applies to massless particles like photons.

CallumC
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Ok so the equation E= hf about the energy of a photon, I'm having a problem understanding energies to do with photons.
Since, E=hf
∴ 1/2mv2=hf. But if m=0 how can a photon have energy?
 
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hf is NOT the "kinetic energy" of photons. So you cannot equate things that are different.

Read this FAQ Thread.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=511175

Zz.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(1/2)mv^2 doesn't work for energy in relativity. The general relationship between energy, mass and momentum in relativity is

##E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (pc)^2##

where m is the invariant mass which is sometimes called "rest mass." For photons, m = 0 so E = pc, that is, they can have both energy and momentum even though they don't have ("rest") mass.
 
jtbell said:
where m is the invariant mass which is sometimes called "rest mass." For photons, m = 0 so E = pc, that is, they can have both energy and momentum even though they don't have ("rest") mass.

But if p=mv then are we not back at the same problem, sorry for my ignorance I just wish to understand it.
 
The point is that ##p=mv## does not hold for a massless object. If it would, then ##v=\infty## and we have nonsense. I recommend Giancoli's 6th Edition of Physics for a deeper understanding of Photons.
 
Callum, p=mv is valid in Newtonian physics only (in the form [itex]\displaystyle{\vec{p}=m\vec{v}}[/itex]). You may have seen p=mv with m the so-called <relativistic mass> which is a highly useless and missleading notion, now abandoned even in introductory texts.
 

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