News Does libertarianism just shift tyranny from the government to individuals?

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the practicality of libertarianism and its implications for individual freedom versus government control. Critics argue that while libertarian ideals advocate for minimal government, they risk transferring tyranny from the state to individuals, particularly in areas like environmental protection and corporate accountability. The conversation highlights concerns about the effectiveness of tort reform in holding corporations accountable for pollution and the challenges of decentralized power leading to local corruption. Additionally, there is skepticism regarding the infallibility of the U.S. Constitution, with calls for modernization to reflect contemporary societal values. Ultimately, the debate questions whether a truly libertarian government can effectively protect citizens' rights without becoming tyrannical itself.
  • #61
I find idea that "welfare" never "removes freedom" frustrating. The decades of experience with welfare, followed later by reform, grant us a good data set to show the effects of welfare dependency and all that goes with it: http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/437DD129D95AFA07970E510BB332B650.jpg, increased http://www.heritage.org/research/testimony/~/media/Images/Reports/2001/The%20Effects%20of%20Welfare%20Reform/effectswelfarereformchart3.ashx?w=400&h=515&as=1. To my mind these afflictions are also loss of freedom, brought about by state action.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #62
russ_watters said:
Fair enough. Extending that, I'd say that while Western political history/theory/development from Hobbes to about 1900 focused almost exclusively on protection of negative liberty, the past 100 years has seen provision of positive liberty go from virtually nonexistent to elevation above negative liberty in many cases. Your opinion?
I'm not sure I know enough about the history of the various countries to comment.
russ_watters said:
Extending further, while I think few people would disagree that providing needs to the truly needy serves a moral good, where we would disagree is:
1. What is true need?
That's a very hard question. To be honest I'd rather not use the term need at all because it's largely arbitrary; some would say that need is purely the physical needs of food, safety, healthcare etc but others (me amongst them) would go on to include economic and social needs. Human beings have more needs to live fulfilling lives than is usually thought. I'd say a need is something that is necessary to allow you to live to fulfilled, prosperous and healthy life. It's easier to work out on a case by case basis but to be honest I think we lack a suitable metric by which to measure it by.
russ_watters said:
2. Should gov't provide beyond true need?
In a democratic setting in theory a government is what the majority of people taking part want it to be (that includes majority support for legislation to avoid majority rule). In terms of providing I'd like to replace that with the term "take steps to ensure/enhance". Going back to the idea of a metric if we did have a technique that we use to measure a range of things from underemployment rates to happiness levels I'd say a governments role is to ensure ever higher scores on that metric.
russ_watters said:
3. How much negative liberty should be sacrificed to achieve these?
It's largely incomparable without a good metric and some data to look at. If we just took a simple metric like GDP per capita then we might as a question a long the lines of "would GDP per capita increase/decrease if we took X% from these people and used it to educate these people?" Does that make sense?
 
  • #63
Quite frankly, as a person living in the US I think our system so backwards. Welfare can go awry and when it does it can be debilitating to the individuals involved. Apparently student loans for a masters degree can count as benefits that interfere with welfare. Here is an example of what I mean:
http://familyfraud.com/i-need-legal-advice-i-have-been-accused-of-welfare-fraud-because-of-college-loans.htm
Personally I think that student loans should not be considered welfare in any sense of the word. It's a loan.

Our health care system is completely backwards, with the majority of medicine being focused on treating symptoms, not the disease itself or the sources of disease. Instead of producing healthy citizens it's only there to treat us once we get sick. Instead institutions that promote poor health are either grandfathered into our society or are integrated into our society.

Our agricultural backbone is buckling from the effects of genetically modified food, which ironically ties back into topics. I honestly don't see how one can claim that food that enables higher concentrations of pesticides within food, or provides the plant the ability to produce pesticide, should not be subject to long term studies before being deployed into the agricultural infrastructure of our country. If there is even a few studies that indicate a new product is dangerous to consumers, why should it be allowed into the market? How does being forced to buy seeds every crop cycle due to the plants being sterile decrease costs to farmers?

Our environmental policies are very weak. Corporations causing terrible environmental damage, such as hydraulic fracturing go on with little issue even when they refuse to acknowledge the existence of dangerous chemicals in their "fracking fluid" or the fact it gets absorbed into farmers groundwater. Those times that the government steps in the companies are given a slap on the wrist. Ranchers with animals dying due to contaminated groundwater are provided with water as the frackers continue to frack up the local ecosystem.

If anyone wants to nitpick with the last 3 points just know that this isn't uneducated blabber, and that I've spent months looking at evidence in those areas (and a lot more). You will kind of open up a flood gate if you decide to debate on those, and I really would rather not think about such sad things. But, I digress. The "safety net" that the US government is allegedly producing has so much wrong with it that its only going to get worse if we continue to expand it without doing ALOT of house cleaning first.
 
  • #64
Skyler0114 said:
Quite frankly, as a person living in the US I think our system so backwards. Welfare can go awry and when it does it can be debilitating to the individuals involved. Apparently student loans for a masters degree can count as benefits that interfere with welfare. Here is an example of what I mean:
http://familyfraud.com/i-need-legal-advice-i-have-been-accused-of-welfare-fraud-because-of-college-loans.htm
Personally I think that student loans should not be considered welfare in any sense of the word. It's a loan.

Our health care system is completely backwards, with the majority of medicine being focused on treating symptoms, not the disease itself or the sources of disease. Instead of producing healthy citizens it's only there to treat us once we get sick. Instead institutions that promote poor health are either grandfathered into our society or are integrated into our society.

Our agricultural backbone is buckling from the effects of genetically modified food, which ironically ties back into topics. I honestly don't see how one can claim that food that enables higher concentrations of pesticides within food, or provides the plant the ability to produce pesticide, should not be subject to long term studies before being deployed into the agricultural infrastructure of our country. If there is even a few studies that indicate a new product is dangerous to consumers, why should it be allowed into the market? How does being forced to buy seeds every crop cycle due to the plants being sterile decrease costs to farmers?

Our environmental policies are very weak. Corporations causing terrible environmental damage, such as hydraulic fracturing go on with little issue even when they refuse to acknowledge the existence of dangerous chemicals in their "fracking fluid" or the fact it gets absorbed into farmers groundwater. Those times that the government steps in the companies are given a slap on the wrist. Ranchers with animals dying due to contaminated groundwater are provided with water as the frackers continue to frack up the local ecosystem.

If anyone wants to nitpick with the last 3 points just know that this isn't uneducated blabber, and that I've spent months looking at evidence in those areas (and a lot more). You will kind of open up a flood gate if you decide to debate on those, and I really would rather not think about such sad things. But, I digress. The "safety net" that the US government is allegedly producing has so much wrong with it that its only going to get worse if we continue to expand it without doing ALOT of house cleaning first.

First I would love to see sources for any of this.

Second the reason our medical care focuses on symptoms is that is what consumers are willing to pay for to get remedy the market pushed care in that direction. Think about it many people I know will spend 20 dollars a month treating a symptom instead of thousands up front for a cure, but there is another reason I personally need major back surgery but I would not be able to even start rehab for a year and then would need months of rehab before I could go back to work. I can not afford to be off work that long can you ? so I treat the symptoms as best I can.

Third every plant an animal we currently produce can be considered GMO due to selective breading even "wild rice" is not wild rice. With out GMO crops modern machinery and irrigation the world would starve. Per acre pesticide use is down in the US from pest resistant crops AFAIK.

Fourth Show me one case where "livestock was killed due to groundwater contamination" the only cases I know of where livestock was harmed were actually surface spills. Which if you have ever been in industry you know can not be completely avoided only mitigated as best as possible. I also have never seen a single test showing frac chemicals in ground water. There are plenty of cases of Methane in water but that obviously is not a frac chemical. Lastly http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used the chemicals are easily available at several registries like the one linked to help with confusion you look at a list like that and any given job will select 4 or 5 chemicals off of that list and they are added to water at ratios in the 1 to 2 gallons per thousand gallons of water. They are then pumped a mile underground where they mix with millions of gallons of brine (salt) water that are already present at that depth making the chemicals highly dilute and frankly very far from any potable water. Failed casing and cement jobs can and hve casued issues but again these are not "fracking" problems they are drilling and well integrity problems.

My degree is environmental geology and I work for a natural gas producer in PA. I am not sure what any of these points has to do with the election but I am curious. I will have any conversation you like in PM.
 
  • #65
russ_watters said:
Extending further, while I think few people would disagree that providing needs to the truly needy serves a moral good, where we would disagree is:
1. What is true need?
2. Should gov't provide beyond true need?
3. How much negative liberty should be sacrificed to achieve these?

Yes, this is a point a lot of people miss in the debate. "Welfare" and collective interest do not necessarily have to come from government. I think in many ways, pawning off social problems on the government makes people less inclined to the collective interest, as in "that's the government's problem, not mine." I think it's a pretty dim view of humanity that says no one would ever help anyone else unless they're forced to do so at gunpoint.
 
  • #66
Galteeth said:
Yes, this is a point a lot of people miss in the debate. "Welfare" and collective interest do not necessarily have to come from government. I think in many ways, pawning off social problems on the government makes people less inclined to the collective interest, as in "that's the government's problem, not mine." I think it's a pretty dim view of humanity that says no one would ever help anyone else unless they're forced to do so at gunpoint.
I think that's a mischaracterisation of taxes and how people perceive but regardless charities do not raise as much money as governments in similar fields and I don't see that they would necessarily if governments weren't responsible for those fields. Take healthcare for example in countries with no universal healthcare schemes. Are there charities that attract enough money to provide for those who can't pay?
 
  • #67
The answer is yes.
 
  • #68
Galteeth said:
As pointed out, the main intention of the second amendment was a final check against tyranny. At the time, the states were wary of a federal dictatorship. In order for the amendment to serve this purpose, the public must have access to weapons that could at least offer some resistance against the government.

I believe that this has become a naive view, given that the killing capacity of firearms has improved markedly since the late 18th century, and given that the military could stomp the populace of America with relative ease despite the prevalence of high-powered munitions in the public domain.

Furthermore, I believe the Second Amendment was clearly intended to support the use of well-regulated militias, not Joe Six-Pack having a Howitzer in his backyard. We have well-regulated militias - they're known as the National Guard. Does anyone seriously believe the Texas National Guard will ever fire a shot in anger at the United States Army, even if the United States becomes a tyranny?
 
  • #69
jduster said:
The answer is yes.

Pre-Government Welfare: Gilded Age.

Post-Government Welfare: Highest average standard of living in the entirety of history.

History speaks for itself on this position.
 
  • #70
Angry Citizen said:
Pre-Government Welfare: Gilded Age.

Post-Government Welfare: Highest average standard of living in the entirety of history.

History speaks for itself on this position.

After the fact, therefore because of the fact fallacy.
 
  • #71
mheslep said:
After the fact, therefore because of the fact fallacy.

You claim, then, that we cannot ascertain the benefits of programs which specifically target a problem by analyzing how the problem became less of a problem after the implementation of said program?

Well now, I think this debate has gone far enough then. Since we're seemingly beyond the point wherein evidence is admissible, there's no way for anyone to claim anything.
 
  • #72
Angry Citizen said:
You claim, then, that we cannot ascertain the benefits of programs which specifically target a problem by analyzing how the problem became less of a problem after the implementation of said program?
No, not by that alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL_vHDjG5Wk

Well now, I think this debate has gone far enough then. Since we're seemingly beyond the point wherein evidence is admissible, there's no way for anyone to claim anything.
Evidence is hard, confirmation of belief is easy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment
 
  • #73
Evidence is hard, confirmation of belief is easy.

I used to be a libertarian. No confirmation of belief here.
 
  • #74
Angry Citizen said:
I used to be a libertarian. No confirmation of belief here.
Unavoidable. Everywhere.
 
  • #75
Then in lieu of being able to ascertain the effect of our policies, I don't think anyone has a reasonable argument whether one political belief system is more "right" than others. This again rather invalidates debate, so I think I'll move on.
 
  • #76
So... Back to libertarianism...

Being raised in New Hampshire, which is arguably the most libertarian state in the country, I have different thoughts about it. Notably, New Hampshire lacks many of the laws that other states in the country have implemented, and yet still manages to be at the top of most lists that compare states according to their living standards, education, economy, etc.

Firstly, I feel like most people confuse libertariansm with anarchy, which has been suggested already. Less government is not the same as No government. Also, regarding anarchy, many seem to think that anarchy is some horrible system that is doomed to fail, however, I would point out that the current international system is anarchic, and while yes, there are many problems associated with international relations (as there are within any system), the system is not entirely disorderly either. I could have whole discussions about that... but sticking to the topic...

Libertarianism actually advocates a very strong federal government, but with very specific and limited powers and goals. Indeed, the premise behind such a government is to prevent tyranny at any level. The ideal system would grant federal powers the ability to prevent "small" tyrannies at local levels, but also limit the federal powers themselves as not to become tyrannical. Ron Paul's personal ideology may seem to imply the necessary shift of tyranny from the government to individuals, but that is one man's vision of libertarian ism implemented. Not the necessary implication from the theoretical system of libertarianism itself.
 
  • #77
Angry Citizen said:
Pre-Government Welfare: Gilded Age.

Post-Government Welfare: Highest average standard of living in the entirety of history.

History speaks for itself on this position.
Except that the Gilded Age also saw the highest average standard of living at the time. Yours is an unprovable proposition, based on arguing against your own speculation.
 
  • #78
Angry Citizen said:
I believe that this has become a naive view, given that the killing capacity of firearms has improved markedly since the late 18th century, and given that the military could stomp the populace of America with relative ease despite the prevalence of high-powered munitions in the public domain.

Furthermore, I believe the Second Amendment was clearly intended to support the use of well-regulated militias, not Joe Six-Pack having a Howitzer in his backyard. We have well-regulated militias - they're known as the National Guard. Does anyone seriously believe the Texas National Guard will ever fire a shot in anger at the United States Army, even if the United States becomes a tyranny?

But an armed populace could and has been a deterrent against extremely unpopular policies. Getting into hypothetical scenarios is a bit sketchy since the circumstances differ greatly, but asymetric warfare does not inevitably favor the more powerful occupying army.
 
  • #79
russ_watters said:
Except that the Gilded Age also saw the highest average standard of living at the time. Yours is an unprovable proposition, based on arguing against your own speculation.

Yes, it's very hard to use historical examples since there are many factors besides size of government. Technology tends to grow over time which almost always leads to, in the measurable sense, higher standards of living. Arguments about government essentially hinge on ethical questions, since there is no way to isolate the variable making "scientific" discussions about government meaningless.
 
  • #80
Angry Citizen said:
I believe that this has become a naive view, given that the killing capacity of firearms has improved markedly since the late 18th century, and given that the military could stomp the populace of America with relative ease despite the prevalence of high-powered munitions in the public domain.

Furthermore, I believe the Second Amendment was clearly intended to support the use of well-regulated militias, not Joe Six-Pack having a Howitzer in his backyard. We have well-regulated militias - they're known as the National Guard. Does anyone seriously believe the Texas National Guard will ever fire a shot in anger at the United States Army, even if the United States becomes a tyranny?

Galteeth said:
But an armed populace could and has been a deterrent against extremely unpopular policies. Getting into hypothetical scenarios is a bit sketchy since the circumstances differ greatly, but asymetric warfare does not inevitably favor the more powerful occupying army.

You don't need a hypothetical scenario. You have the civil war in which the state militias of the Southern states banded together to fight the state militias of the Northern states (plus a small federal army).

The civil war was precisely the scenario envisioned by the Second Amendment. Well, except for the ending.
 
  • #81
BobG said:
You don't need a hypothetical scenario. You have the civil war in which the state militias of the Southern states banded together to fight the state militias of the Northern states (plus a small federal army).

The civil war was precisely the scenario envisioned by the Second Amendment. Well, except for the ending.
Realistically, our military has weapons and capabilities civilians simply cannot come near, unlike the abiltiy to roll a cannon away in the civil war.
 
  • #82
BobG said:
The civil war was precisely the scenario envisioned by the Second Amendment. Well, except for the ending.

I've heard this quite a bit, always from people who seem like they would want it to be the case, but the exact opposite is true. The usual form is where the incorrect person says the Second Amendment is for citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government. Again, the opposite is true. The Second Amendment protects the government, tyrannical or not, from angry citizens.

Ther Second Amendment refers to the importance of militias to be armed. And note this from Article 1 Section 8: "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions" So the militias need to be armed to put down "Insurrections". This surely would include the South's insurrection in the Civil War. And it provides the government a means to protect itself from citizens who have concluded correctly or incorrectly that the government has become tyrannical.

The Constitution says what it says, and it would be wrong for someone to assume it says what he thinks it should say.
 
  • #83
ApplePion said:
I've heard this quite a bit, always from people who seem like they would want it to be the case, but the exact opposite is true. The usual form is where the incorrect person says the Second Amendment is for citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government. Again, the opposite is true. The Second Amendment protects the government, tyrannical or not, from angry citizens.

Ther Second Amendment refers to the importance of militias to be armed. And note this from Article 1 Section 8: "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions" So the militias need to be armed to put down "Insurrections". This surely would include the South's insurrection in the Civil War. And it provides the government a means to protect itself from citizens who have concluded correctly or incorrectly that the government has become tyrannical.

The Constitution says what it says, and it would be wrong for someone to assume it says what he thinks it should say.

Which government is protected is the important part. It protects the state government from insurrections and it protects the state government from the federal government.

In other words, if a majority of a state's citizens concluded that the federal government had become tyrannical (or if the governor came to that decision and didn't care about reelection), the state's militia could help them out.

The governor of the state is still the commander in chief of that state's National Guard troops except when a National Guard unit has been mobilized and deployed in support of federal forces. And National Guard members swear an oath to both the US Constitution (as do all active duty troops) and an oath to their state constitution.

It is true that the National Guard couldn't stand up to federal military forces, but they do have more sophisticated weapons than private citizens could own.

But, today, it would almost be ludicrous to see National Guard troops as having the primary mission of protecting states from the federal government. The National Guard still protects the states (natural disaster response, riots, etc), but I'd find it hard to envision something like the civil war happening today.
 
  • #84
BobG said:
Which government is protected is the important part. It protects the state government from insurrections and it protects the state government from the federal government.

How did you reach that conclusion?

The Constitution gives Congress, a branch of the Federal government, the power to call out the militias to protect the government from insurection. The quote from the Constitution I gave you was specifically about the powers of the Congress.

BobG said:
In other words, if a majority of a state's citizens concluded that the federal government had become tyrannical (or if the governor came to that decision and didn't care about reelection), the state's militia could help them out.

Again, I don't see upon what basis you are reaching your conclusion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #85
The Constitution says what the federal government can and cannot do. It doesn't say what the states can or cannot do internally because, at least at that time, the federal government had no power over the states (literally - the Articles of Confederation had virtually collapsed by time the states decided they needed a better plan). Article 4 does describe the relationship of the state with the federal government and other states. In other words, the Constitution only gives part of the picture, not the whole picture, when it comes to the states.

When it came to militias, Congress could:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress

And the President:

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

The militias (which evolved into today's National Guard) belonged to the state. The federal government had power over the militias only when they were supporting the federal government.

The Constitution doesn't actually describe how that transition takes place and that might be seen as a weakness seeing as how states were also supposed to donate troops under the Articles of Confederation - but didn't. When states requested help from the federal government, such as during the Shays Rebellion in Massachusetts, the federal government under the Articles of Confederation couldn't come through for them because the US Army only had 625 troops and there was no power to force states to turn over control of their militias to the federal government.

There was nothing in the Constitution to directly rectify that problem except the good faith that states would be more willing to support the federal government if the federal government was better. The Constitution did allow the federal government to have its own army and navy, with the size unspecified (but hopefully larger than 625).

And the federal army did eventually gain true power over the mlitias, at least during war time, shortly after the start of the Civil War when the traditional relationship was blamed as contributing to several defeats to start the war off even though, per the Constitution, they should have had that power right off the bat once they joined whatever military campaign the federal government was fighting (never mind that the Confederates had an even less centralized military and their lack of centralization persisted throughout the war). It took a while for those two clauses in the Constitution to actually mean something.

Trivia: The founding of the National Guard dates back to Dec 13, 1636 - 140 years before the Revolutionary War.
 
  • #86
BobG, I really don't understand your point. The Constitution said that an important reason for the right to bear arms is to arm militias, and it also says that one of the powers of the Congress is to call out the militia to put down "Insurrections". So it seems to me undeniable that the Second Amendment was there to prevent rebellions against the federal governmement such as the Civil War, etc...not to facilitate those things.
 
  • #87
ApplePion - You are drawing an unsupportable connection between the 2nd amendment and the Constitution's Article 1 militia reference; the connection does not exist. Your argument is akin to correctly pointing out that the Constitution calls for a federally supported postal service, and correctly pointing out that the Constitution grants power for federally supported armed forces, therefore (incorrectly) assuming the Constitution demands the postal service should be run by the armed forces.
 
  • #88
Plus, it's debatable whether or not the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to preserve the states' ability to have their own militia.

The wording of the 2nd Amendment is very vague - intentionally so.

There were many concerned with the states having their own militia and a provision in the Bill of Rights preventing the federal government from disbanding them. There were also many that believed in the individuals' right to own firearms and didn't want any government, whether federal or state, infringing those rights. Add to this that many states couldn't actually afford to arm an army and required militia members to bring their own guns and ammunition.

The vague wording aided passage in that all camps could see what they wanted to see in the Amendment by putting emphasis on different parts of the amendment.

Personally, I do think the state militia part was the most important part, as the revolutionaries had prior experiences with the British attempting to seize the heavy cannons of state militias (that's what Paul Revere's ride was about).

But the Bill of Rights was primarily intended to provide protection from the federal government. An Amendment intended to put down something like the Civil War would have been out of place there.
 
  • #89
mheslep said:
ApplePion - You are drawing an unsupportable connection between the 2nd amendment and the Constitution's Article 1 militia reference; the connection does not exist. Your argument is akin to correctly pointing out that the Constitution calls for a federally supported postal service, and correctly pointing out that the Constitution grants power for federally supported armed forces, therefore (incorrectly) assuming the Constitution demands the postal service should be run by the armed forces.

Both Article 1 and the Second Amendment refer to the same thing--militias. You are claiming that equating militias to militias is like equating the Post Office to the Armed Forces.

BobG said:
Plus, it's debatable whether or not the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to preserve the states' ability to have their own militia. The wording of the 2nd Amendment is very vague - intentionally so.

I somewhat agree with you on that, but it is somewhat irrelevant--Article 1 clearly gave the federal government power yo put down "Insurrection"

No matter how you cut it, the Constitution did not support the South suceding or anyone otherthrowing the government.

BobG said:
But the Bill of Rights was primarily intended to provide protection from the federal government. An Amendment intended to put down something like the Civil War would have been out of place there.

You might think it would be out of place, but it is in there!

BobG said:
An Amendment intended to put down something like the Civil War would have been out of place there.

The part of the Constitution protecting the Federal Government from armed "Insurrection" was no amendment. It was part of the full intent of the Founders.

While people now tink of the Bill of Rights as being a key part of the Constitution, they were not even originally intended to be in there --they were put in later to amend the Constitution to gather political support from some dissenters.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #90
Pro-tip: Clever use of Quote tags can make it so you don't need to clutter up a thread with four posts in a row. I would suggest multi-quote, but it seems like you made four posts quoting different parts of the same post.