Does this defense lawyer's probability argument sound like BS?

In summary, the conversation discusses the issue of using Bayes theorem to calculate the odds of innocence in a court case. The main concerns raised are the difficulty in establishing the prior probability of guilt and the interpretation of the result. There are also objections to the initial assumption of guilt and the use of likelihood ratio as a probability. The general point is that most people do not have a good understanding of probability and may struggle to properly evaluate the arguments.
  • #1
swampwiz
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Either that, or the author is a typical "pop scientist" author that doesn't understand probability too well.

https://nautil.us/issue/4/the-unlikely/the-odds-of-innocence
 
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  • #2
swampwiz said:
Either that, or the author is a typical "pop scientist" author that doesn't understand probability too well.

https://nautil.us/issue/4/the-unlikely/the-odds-of-innocence
What's wrong with it? This seems like an ok application of Bayes theorem.
The main problems with this kind of calculation are the difficulty of establishing the prior probability that someone is guilty, and the interpretation of the result. (What percentage was reasonable doubt again, your honour?)
 
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  • #3
The general point seems sound to me, but I'd have a couple of objections;
1. General: most people don't have a good enough understanding of probability to properly evaluate the arguments.
2. Specific: I'm not happy with the initial assumption of guilt of 1/200000. That seems to assume he was randomly selected from the local population to be put on trial, or at least to have his DNA tested, but that isn't the case. He was a known sex offender, and therefore likely to be of interest as a suspect, and his DNA was already on the database and found to be a match. He was not a random choice.
 
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  • #4
I would have to think about the defence's likelihood ratio argument. I have never seen a likelihood ratio interpreted as a probability. I think that may be an error. Or it may be using the term "likelihood" in a different context than I am used to.
 
  • #5
mjc123 said:
Specific: I'm not happy with the initial assumption of guilt of 1/200000. That seems to assume he was randomly selected from the local population to be put on trial, or at least to have his DNA tested, but that isn't the case. He was a known sex offender, and therefore likely to be of interest as a suspect, and his DNA was already on the database and found to be a match. He was not a random choice.
I think that is a good point. Probably the beat approach would have been to start with the “random male” number but add “convicted sex offender” as an additional explicit piece of evidence.
 
  • #6
FactChecker said:
I would have to think about the defence's likelihood ratio argument. I have never seen a likelihood ratio interpreted as a probability. I think that may be an error. Or it may be using the term "likelihood" in a different context than I am used to.
The likelihood ratio isn’t a probability because it can be greater than 1. It is the strength of the evidence. If you multiply the prior odds by the likelihood ratio then you get the posterior odds.
 
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1. What is a probability argument in a legal context?

A probability argument in a legal context refers to a defense lawyer's attempt to use statistical or mathematical principles to argue for the innocence of their client. This can involve presenting evidence or data to show that the likelihood of their client's guilt is low or that there is reasonable doubt in the case.

2. How can I determine if a defense lawyer's probability argument is valid?

To determine the validity of a probability argument, it is important to consider the evidence and data presented by the defense lawyer. It is also helpful to consult with experts in the field of statistics or mathematics to evaluate the argument. Additionally, the judge and jury will ultimately decide if the argument is valid and if it holds weight in the case.

3. Can a probability argument be used in any type of legal case?

Yes, a probability argument can be used in any type of legal case where there is a need to assess the likelihood of a certain outcome or event. This can include criminal cases, civil cases, and even administrative hearings.

4. Is a probability argument enough to prove someone's innocence?

No, a probability argument alone is not enough to prove someone's innocence. It is just one piece of evidence that can be used to support a defense lawyer's case. Other evidence, such as witness testimony or physical evidence, may also be necessary to prove someone's innocence.

5. What are the limitations of using a probability argument in a legal case?

One limitation of using a probability argument in a legal case is that it can be subjective and open to interpretation. Different experts or individuals may have different opinions on the validity of the argument. Additionally, probability arguments may not always hold up in court and can be challenged by the prosecution or other experts.

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