Don't understand what is exchanging with what in this acid/base equili

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the acid-base equilibrium involving ammonium ion (NH4+) and ammonia (NH3) in water, specifically examining the exchange processes between these species and water, as well as the relationship between rate constants of the forward and reverse reactions. The scope includes conceptual understanding of acid-base reactions and equilibrium dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether NH4+ or NH3 is exchanging with H2O, proposing two scenarios with corresponding rate constants (k1 and k-1).
  • Another participant challenges the assumption that the two representations of the reaction have the same rate constants, suggesting they are related to the same equilibrium but not identical.
  • A different participant expresses uncertainty about whether NH4+ or NH3 is exchanging H+ with H2O, indicating a preference for the first scenario at pH=7.
  • One participant states a lack of understanding of the exact mechanism but argues that the details do not affect the equilibrium, emphasizing that equilibrium is the primary focus.
  • This participant also notes that H+ and OH- do not exist as free ions in solution, suggesting that H3O+ and solvated forms should be considered instead.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the exchange processes and the relationship between rate constants, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a consensus on the exact mechanisms involved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the presence of H+ and OH- in solution, as well as the definitions of the species involved in the reactions. The discussion does not resolve these complexities.

alex_alex
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NH4+ + H2O (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H3O+;

the same reaction can be written as:
NH4+ + HO- (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H2O;

where (kf) - rate of forward reaction and (kr) - rate of reverse reaction.

1 Question. NH4+ or NH3 exchanging with H2O?

If NH4+ is exchanging with H2O:
NH4+ (k-1) =(k1) H2O,

where (k1) - rate of exchange from NH4+ to H2O and (k-1) - rate of exchange from H2O to NH4+.


If NH3is exchanging with H2O:
NH3(k-1) =(k1) H2O,

where (k1) - rate of exchange from NH3 to H2O and (k-1) - rate of exchange from H2O to NH3.

2 Question. What is the relationship between k1, k-1 and kf, kr?
 
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alex_alex said:
NH4+ + H2O (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H3O+;

the same reaction can be written as:
NH4+ + HO- (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H2O;

I don't see why you assume it is the same reaction with the same rate constants. They are definitely related to the same equilibrium, but that's all.
 
Borek said:
I don't see why you assume it is the same reaction with the same rate constants. They are definitely related to the same equilibrium, but that's all.

At pH=7, I assume that 1st one is the most likely case. I am not sure I understand NH4+ or NH3 is exchanging H+ with H2O?
 
To be honest, I have no idea what the exact mechanism is - at the same time I don't think it matters. Equilibrium doesn't depend on these details, and it is equilibrium that we are typically interested in.

Please note there is no such thing as H+ nor OH- in the solution. H3O+ is only an approximation, as proton is most likely solvated by more than one water molecule. OH- is solvated as well, so it is present as - at least - H3O2-. We ignore all these and it doesn't interfere with our understanding of acid/base reactions, why should it matter for ammonia?
 

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