Dumb, simple, surprising, cardinality question

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    Cardinality
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around cardinality, specifically the relationships between the cardinalities of sets such as the natural numbers, real numbers, and their power sets. Participants explore various claims and questions related to these concepts, including proofs and implications of cardinality comparisons.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the existence of a set X such that the cardinality of X is less than that of the natural numbers but greater than every natural number.
  • Another participant asserts that a countable union of countable sets remains countable, challenging a proposed equivalence of cardinalities.
  • A participant recalls that the cardinality of the set of sequences of natural numbers is equal to the cardinality of the real numbers, suggesting implications for the original question.
  • There is a claim that the cardinality of the set of real numbers raised to the power of natural numbers is also equal to the cardinality of the real numbers, inviting further exploration of this assertion.
  • A later reply introduces the continuum hypothesis, stating that there is no definitive answer to whether a set exists with cardinality strictly between that of the natural numbers and the real numbers, indicating the complexity of the topic.
  • Another participant suggests starting with the proof that the cardinality of the real numbers is equivalent to the power set of the natural numbers, proposing a method to approach the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationships between various cardinalities, with some affirming certain equalities while others challenge them. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the existence of a set with cardinality strictly between that of the natural numbers and the real numbers.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex concepts such as the continuum hypothesis and the laws of indices, indicating that the discussion may depend on specific definitions and assumptions within set theory. Some mathematical steps and proofs are not fully elaborated, leaving room for interpretation and further inquiry.

jostpuur
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How do you prove that there does not exist a set [itex]X[/itex] such that

[tex] \textrm{card}(X) < \textrm{card}(\mathbb{N})[/tex]

but still

[tex] n < \textrm{card}(X),\quad \forall\;n\in\mathbb{N}[/tex]

-----------------

edit:

I proved this already. No need to answer...

------------------

I came up with a new question! Is this true?

[tex] \textrm{card}\Big(\bigcup_{n=1}^{\infty} \mathbb{N}^n\Big) = \textrm{card}(\mathbb{R})[/tex]
 
Last edited:
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Nope, a countable union of countable sets is always countable.
 
I had forgotten that now... Amazing. But this is true?

[tex] \textrm{card}(\mathbb{N}^{\mathbb{N}}) = \textrm{card}(\mathbb{R})[/tex]

So all this implies

[tex] \textrm{card}\Big(\bigcup_{n=1}^{\infty}\mathbb{N}^n\Big) < \textrm{card}(\mathbb{N}^{\mathbb{N}})[/tex]

How unfortunante...
 
jostpuur said:
But this is true?

[tex] \textrm{card}(\mathbb{N}^{\mathbb{N}}) = \textrm{card}(\mathbb{R})[/tex]

Yes it is! Amazingly enough, we actually have the stronger
[tex] \textrm{card}(\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{N}}) = \textrm{card}(\mathbb{R})[/tex].
It's a very worthwhile exercise to try to prove this. It's not straightforward, so ask back for a hint if you get stuck.

Here's another question: is there a set with cardinality strictly between that of N and R?

Amazingly enough, the actual answer to this question isn't "no", BUT neither is it "yes": it's something altogether more weird and interesting. In fact the question has no answer; under the standard axioms of set theory, it can neither be proved nor disproved! Look up "continuum hypothesis" for more info on this if you're interested. Mathematics is a weird place sometimes...
 
Something to get you started on the problem: First prove that [itex]\mathbb{R}[/itex] has the same cardinality as the power set of [itex]\mathbb{N}[/itex], denoted [itex]2^\mathbb{N}[/itex]. This is the set of all subsets of [itex]\mathbb{N}[/itex]. Then prove that the laws of indices for ordinary numbers still work here...
 

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