E8 and Catastrophe Theory(Bifurcation) - help

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the E8 Lie group and bifurcation theory, specifically within the context of catastrophe theory. Participants explore the classification of catastrophes and seek to understand the stable polynomials associated with E6, E7, and E8, as well as their behaviors.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in finding information on the specific bifurcation corresponding to E8, noting reliance on Wikipedia.
  • Another participant suggests that the E8 catastrophe is exceptional and does not correspond to any other categories, referencing the ADE classification of catastrophes.
  • A participant provides a list of known catastrophes and their classifications, indicating a desire for more detailed information on E6 and E7.
  • One participant shares a link to a document that outlines singularities corresponding to E6, E7, and E8 but acknowledges limited knowledge on the topic.
  • Another participant mentions the tetrahedral formula and its parameters, expressing frustration over the lack of detailed explanations for E6 and E7 in existing literature.
  • A participant provides specific forms for codimension 6 and 7 singularities, including their universal unfoldings, and clarifies a source citation.
  • One participant indicates difficulty accessing the article that contains relevant information.
  • A later reply suggests an alternative source that may contain the needed information, directing others to specific pages.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the stable polynomials for E6 and E7, and there is ongoing uncertainty regarding the completeness of available resources on these topics.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in existing literature, including sketchy explanations and incomplete information regarding the stable forms and behaviors of E6 and E7. There is also mention of varying access to sources that may provide further clarity.

MTd2
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I've been looking to what kind of bifurcation E8 corresponds to, but I didn´t find anythng. The only place I've found anything was on wikipedia, but it doesn't say anything. Can anyone help me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory
 
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MTd2 said:
I've been looking to what kind of bifurcation E8 corresponds to, but I didn´t find anythng. The only place I've found anything was on wikipedia, but it doesn't say anything. Can anyone help me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory

Hi MTd2! Are you any relation of R2d2? :smile:

As I expect you found, the A,D,E classification of catastrophes by names beginning with A D and E makes the As correspond to the A series of Lie groups, the Ds to the D series, and the Es to the E series … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_classification

In turn, the A series of Lie groups correspond to SU groups, and the B series to SL groups.

There are also C and D series of Lie groups (not connected with catastrophes), and finally the E F and G series, officially known as "exceptional" cases … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Lie_group#Infinite_series

so I guess the E8 catastrophe has to be categorised as exceptional, and not corresponding to anything other than itself. :redface:
 
Well, people used to call me R2D2 at college! But that's because I use a wheelchair! :biggrin::biggrin: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Now, seriously, I am asking somthing a little bit different. According to this list provided in the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory):

Vladimir Arnold gave the catastrophes the ADE classification, due to a deep connection with simple Lie groups.

* A0 - a non-singular point: V = x.
* A1 - a local extrema, either a stable minimum or unstable maximum V = \pm x^2 + a x.
* A2 - the fold
* A3 - the cusp
* A4 - the swallowtail
* A5 - the butterfly
* Ak - an infinite sequence of one variable forms V=x^{k+1}+\cdots
* D4- - the elliptical umbilic
* D4+ - the hyperbolic umbilic
* D5 - the parabolic umbilic
* Dk - an infinite sequence of further umbilic forms
* E6 - the symbolic umbilic V = x3 + y4 + axy2 + bxy + cx + dy + ey2
* E7
* E8
//////


There is just one exceptional explained, but I couldn't find the other 2. I'd like to know what is the stable polynomial of the other 2 Es as well as its sketched behavior.
 
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I don't know too much about this myself, but I found http://www.math.purdue.edu/~agabriel/dynkin.pdf" which gives the singularities corresponding to E6, E7, E8 (for analytic functions C^3->C). You probably want to check the source cited there (particularly [1] by Arnold) for more info.
 
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Yes, but I've seen that on several places. Note for example the tetrahedral formula
x^4 + y^3 + z^2, is more complete on wikipedia, because it has the full stable form with 5 control parameters. I said above that this one was explained, well, sorry. It wasn't, except for expliciting the 5 parameters.

But there is nothing for the other groups. And I checked Arnold's book, in the end, and it is just explained in a very sketchy way the icosahedron/dodecahedron group. I'd like something more complete.
 
The codimension 6 singularity

[tex]x^3+xy^3+z^2[/tex]

has a universal unfolding ("stable form")

[tex]x^3+xy^3+z^2+ax+bx^2+cy+dy^2+exy+fx^2y[/tex].

The codimension 7 singularity

[tex]x^3+y^5+z^2[/tex]

has a universal unfolding

[tex]x^3+y^5+z^2+ax+by+cy^2+dy^3+exy+fxy^2+gxy^3[/tex].

Also note that [1] in the link I gave is not Arnold's book but an article in Functional Analysis and Applications.
 
Yes, but I can't get that article.
 
This is also contained in http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~michor/catastrophes.pdf" (written by one of my profs in the year I was born). Check out p. 39 and 46.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hmm, Thank you! :biggrin:
 

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