Every field contains a copy of Z_p

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of fields containing a copy of Z_p, exploring the implications of field characteristics, the structure of finite fields, and the nature of subfields. Participants engage with theoretical aspects, mathematical reasoning, and some conceptual clarifications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that every field contains a 'copy' of Z_p, expressing confusion about this statement.
  • Another participant challenges the assertion by providing a counterexample with the field Q, suggesting that not all fields contain a copy of Z_p.
  • There is agreement on the definition of the characteristic of Z_p as the number of times the multiplicative identity must be added to reach the additive identity.
  • Participants discuss the structure of finite fields, noting that if |F| = p^n, then F* is a group with p^n - 1 elements, and Z_p has p elements with Z_p* having p-1 elements.
  • One participant questions the ability to order elements in a field of characteristic 3, with another participant clarifying that ordering is only possible in ordered fields, which have characteristic 0.
  • There is a discussion about the elements of the Z_3 subfield of F, with one participant suggesting it must include the additive and multiplicative identities, while another proposes a specific set of elements.
  • One participant introduces the idea that if Z_n is defined as Z/nZ, then Z_0 could be interpreted as Z, leading to a discussion about the implications of this notation.
  • Another participant clarifies that Z_0 can be understood as Z/{0}, which is isomorphic to Z, addressing concerns about the notation when n = 0.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether every field contains a copy of Z_p, with some supporting the idea and others providing counterexamples. The discussion includes both agreement on definitions and ongoing debate about specific interpretations and implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations regarding the ordering of elements in fields of non-zero characteristic and the implications of defining Z_n for n = 0, indicating that these concepts may require further exploration.

PsychonautQQ
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So, every field contains a 'copy' of Z_p. I'm a bit confused by this.
F is a field so it has characteristic p, and therefore contains a copy of the field Z_p.

Here are some of my thoughts, are they correct? Do you have anything to add? (I'm trying to see a bigger picture here!):
-The character of Z_p refers to the amount of times you need to add the multiplicative identity to itself to get to the additive identity, zero.
-If |F| = p^n, then F* is a group with p^n - 1 elements. Is |Z_p| = p, and is Z_p* a group with p-1 elements? The * means we are taking all non-units, so in this case the only thing we are taking out is the zero.

Ah so I had a slight tangent there, back to the main point (sorry this post isn't extremely coherent but any reply to any part of the post is very appreciated and useful to me).

Let's say F is a field with character 3 and 3^3 elements. Character 3 means any element multiplied by 3 will return zero.
Let's list the elements of F in order of smallest to largest: {0 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y}.(Can we even order the elements some smallest to largest in this case? I think so...)

Now, I'm trying to figure out what elements the Z_3 sub field of F would contain. would it be {g p y} because those are the 9th, 18th and 27th elements? Well that can't be, it's a subfield so we need to include the same multiplicative and additive identities as the original field, right? So would the elements of Z_3 be {0, 1, and some other thing}?

Anyway, if anyone can shed some light on my incoherent rambling that'd be appreciated. Thank you all for the great help you've been.
 
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PsychonautQQ said:
So, every field contains a 'copy' of Z_p.

False. Look at the field ##\mathbb{Q}##.

-The character of Z_p refers to the amount of times you need to add the multiplicative identity to itself to get to the additive identity, zero.

Correct.

-If |F| = p^n, then F* is a group with p^n - 1 elements. Is |Z_p| = p, and is Z_p* a group with p-1 elements? The * means we are taking all non-units, so in this case the only thing we are taking out is the zero.

If ##p## is a prime (like you intended), then yes. But don't make the mistake that this holds for general ##\mathbb{Z}_n##.

Let's say F is a field with character 3 and 3^3 elements. Character 3 means any element multiplied by 3 will return zero.
Let's list the elements of F in order of smallest to largest: {0 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y}.(Can we even order the elements some smallest to largest in this case? I think so...)

No, we can't order elements in such a field. We can only order elements in ordered fields which can be proven to have characteristic 0.

Now, I'm trying to figure out what elements the Z_3 sub field of F would contain. would it be {g p y} because those are the 9th, 18th and 27th elements? Well that can't be, it's a subfield so we need to include the same multiplicative and additive identities as the original field, right? So would the elements of Z_3 be {0, 1, and some other thing}?

It would be {0, 1, 1+1}
 
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you're awesome
 
That said, if we define ##\mathbb{Z}_n = \mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}##, then we would actually have that ##\mathbb{Z}_0 = \mathbb{Z}##. And in that case, every field does contain a copy of ##\mathbb{Z}_n## where ##n## is either prime or zero. Somehow, this does not seem like a popular convention, but I think it is nice.
 
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Z_0 = Z? I understand this in regards to the character of Z_0 is 0 and so 1+1+1+... will never equal zero, so it will be an infinite series and be equal to the integers. However, in terms of notation Z_n = Z/nZ, how do we make sense of this when n = 0? Z_0 = Z / (0*Z)? Wouldn't that break a the universe and send us all into the endless void or something?
 
Well, ##0\mathbb{Z}## is just the zero ideal. So ##0\mathbb{Z} = \{0\}##. And thus we have ##\mathbb{Z}_0 = \mathbb{Z}/\{0\}## which is (by definition of the quotient space) isomorphic to ##\mathbb{Z}##.
 
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