Expansion of Universe but no expansion of galaxies

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of cosmic expansion and its relationship with gravitationally bound systems, particularly galaxies. Participants explore the implications of the expansion of space between galaxies while questioning why galaxies themselves do not expand. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of cosmology, gravitational forces, and the nature of dark energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express discomfort with the idea that space between galaxies expands while the size of galaxies remains constant, questioning the physical laws that govern these different behaviors.
  • One participant suggests that inside galaxies, gravitational forces are strong enough to counteract the effects of dark energy, which is considered weak on small scales.
  • Another participant explains that gravity and expansion are manifestations of spacetime, with curvature affecting the behavior of expansion in regions with significant mass.
  • A participant uses an analogy involving a rubber sheet to illustrate how local gravitational forces can prevent the expansion of galaxies while space itself stretches.
  • There are references to external discussions and papers that elaborate on the influence of cosmological expansion on local systems, with some participants noting the negligible effects of this expansion.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of cosmic expansion on paleontological records, with references to specific calculations and papers that address these inconsistencies.
  • Some participants mention the need to modify earlier analyses in light of new discoveries, such as the positive cosmological constant, while maintaining that the effects on local systems remain small.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of cosmic expansion for gravitationally bound systems. While some agree on the negligible effects of expansion, others raise questions about the interpretations and implications of various studies.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of gravitationally bound systems and the assumptions made about the effects of dark energy and cosmic expansion. The conversation also reflects varying interpretations of the relevance of paleontological records to cosmological expansion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and enthusiasts of cosmology, astrophysics, and those exploring the implications of gravitational forces in the context of cosmic expansion.

BOYLANATOR
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In my Cosmology course it is stated that the space between galaxies increases with time whilst the size of galaxies (or gravitationally bound space) does not increase.
To me, this seems quite unnatural.
I understand that the space between galaxies is much larger than the radius of a galaxy and that the increase in the radius of a galaxy may be imperceptibly small, however it seems odd that the space inside a galaxy obeys different physical laws to space outside.
And how do we define the edge of a gravitationally bound system, isn't the gravitational force infinite in range?
What is going on here?
 
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BOYLANATOR said:
In my Cosmology course it is stated that the space between galaxies increases with time whilst the size of galaxies (or gravitationally bound space) does not increase.
To me, this seems quite unnatural.
I understand that the space between galaxies is much larger than the radius of a galaxy and that the increase in the radius of a galaxy may be imperceptibly small, however it seems odd that the space inside a galaxy obeys different physical laws to space outside.
And how do we define the edge of a gravitationally bound system, isn't the gravitational force infinite in range?
What is going on here?

There is nothing weird going on, unless you consider (as do many people) dark energy to be weird.

Inside galaxies, there is enough gravitational force to overcome dark energy, which is STAGGERINGLY weak on small scales (and for dark energy, a galaxy is a small scale).

Just google dark energy
 
When talking about what space is doing it is important to understand that gravity and expansion ARE spacetime. Meaning that both gravity and expansion are the manifestation of spacetime that is curved or warped a certain way. The amount/type of curvature inside galaxies and between nearby galaxies is generally enough to either completely stop expansion, or to overpower it by such a large margin that it is unmeasureable. The RULES don't change, it's that the environment changes when add lots of matter and energy.
 
BOYLANATOR said:
In my Cosmology course it is stated that the space between galaxies increases with time whilst the size of galaxies (or gravitationally bound space) does not increase.
To me, this seems quite unnatural.
I understand that the space between galaxies is much larger than the radius of a galaxy and that the increase in the radius of a galaxy may be imperceptibly small, however it seems odd that the space inside a galaxy obeys different physical laws to space outside.
And how do we define the edge of a gravitationally bound system, isn't the gravitational force infinite in range?
What is going on here?

Boylanator, Imagine that you had a big sheet of rubber and started to stretch it - every point stretches. Now imagine that you put a blob of really (really) strong glue at a spot in the center - this time when you stretch the sheet, the force that you use (still stretches the rubber but) is not strong enough to stretch the glue. This is (basically) what is happening in the universe: the rubber of space is stretching while the galactic glue is overcoming the stretching force and staying "bound". I'm just a beginner myself so this is not a very scientific analogy, but I hope that it helps.

Regards,

Noel.
 
Lino said:
Very much more than decent ...

Thanks. I didn't do it all by myself ... had lots of feedback by folks here on this forum.
 
The calculated value of about 11 meters per year increase in Earth orbit due to cosmic expansion amounts to about 7 billionths of a percent per year. Sounds harmless enough until you crunch the numbers. Earth distance to the sun would double about every 100 million years at this rate - which is hugely inconsistent with paleontology records.
 
  • #10
Chronos, I'm confused. I thought that you referenced the paper because you agree with it, but based on a brief review and your previous post, now I'm not so sure. I do value your insights so if you could clarify I would appreciate it.

Regards,

Noel.
 
  • #11
The Cooperstock paper confirms that cosmological expansion has a negligible effect on local systems.
 
  • #12
Thanks Chronos. What about the inconsistency with paleontology records?

Regards,

Noel.
 
  • #13
The Cooperstock paper predates the discovery that our universe has a positive cosmological constant, so its analysis needs to be modified somewhat. I have a treatment here: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/genrel/ch08/ch08.html#Section8.2 (subsection 8.2.10). The result ends up being qualitatively the same: there is an effect on local, bound systems, but it's much too small to measure.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #14
  • #15
Thanks Bcrowell and Chronos. It's a lot to take in but I look forward to trying.

Bcrowell, on a quick review of the contents and a read of some sections, this is a great easy read for intermediates. Thanks again.

Regards,

Noel.
 

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