Explosion reported near Boston Marathon finish line

[OmCheeto]

I'm having some trouble with the way that "suspect #2" is being treated. ...

Not me. I'd have shot him in the nuts if I'd found him bleeding in my boat. As my interaction on FB with someone I'll call "Sybil" points out:

Welcome to the police state of America...
Where your rights mean nothing because a criminal is on the loose...

Some drunk person chimes in, and Sybil responded:

[Drunk person], I promise you, if us Irish in the city would have seen this guy, he wouldn't have made it out alive...Hes lucky the cops found him before we did...

at which point, I went into full troll attack mode...

Things that make you go; "hmmm..." So [Sybil], you seem to imply that it's ok for you and your Irish friends to become vigilantes, and murder someone, but it's not ok for the police to search houses. Personally, if I had a terrorist holding me hostage in my own home, I'd really like to have the police knock on my door. Godspeed to the police, peace be unto all Bostonians, and may god have mercy on that kid's soul. ps. I'd have shot him in the nuts if I'd found him in my boat. That's how much I dislike terrorists.

Sybil did not respond to my post, but did keep going on and on, and, um. I think Sybil might be one of those people who people have been claiming, needs mental help.

 

[cristo]

Wasn't he also bleeding heavily and taken away in an ambulance? Even if he was Mirandized I doubt he was in a good enough mental condition to effectively process it anyway.

In order to legally waive your rights (i.e. for anything you say without a lawyer present after being read the rights) you need to agree. If not or barely conscious, then you cannot knowingly agree.

 

[BobG]

I'm having some trouble with the way that "suspect #2" is being treated. There are some in our government that want to deprive him of any legal representation, starting with no Miranda rights.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-marathon-bombing-suspect-is-un-american?lite

There are some in our government that want him imprisoned as an "enemy combatant" (Gitmo, anyone?).
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/political-insider/2013/apr/20/saxby-chambliss-treat-boston-suspect-enemy-combata/

And yet others who would like to see him tortured.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/20/greg-ball-torture_n_3122524.html

The bomber came to the US as a child and has been here over a decade. He is a naturalized US citizen. Can any US citizen be deprived of basic legal rights? If so, where does it stop?. The crimes that he and his older brother are accused of are horrific. Still, is the US legal system unable to process him even in the face of accusations of such terrible offenses?

IMO, I would be a breath of fresh air if politicians would stop trying to subvert our judicial system to make points at home.

The reading him his rights is almost meaningless. It's just to make sure even the uneducated (i.e. - those that don't watch police shows on TV) know their rights.

I think what they really mean is that they won't technically arrest him for 48 hours (or however long they question him). That way they can question him as a witness without a lawyer to gain intel on anyone else associated with the bombing. That doesn't mean any info that they get from him that incriminates him would be guaranteed of being admitted in court.

In this case, I don't think authorities would have to depend on his answers to their interrogation to convict him and whether or not any answers he gives can be used in his own court case is the least of the authorities' concern. On the other hand, I don't think he's likely to give information that would incriminate anyone else (but you never know). I do think they could get a more clear picture of just what motivated them, where they got the information needed to construct the bombs, etc. In that sense, this would be a good case for denying him his right to representation for at least some initial questioning.

The benefits gained are that he won't have a lawyer that will help him use the information he has that the authorities want to plea bargain a more lenient sentence (but it doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't try to negotiate a better deal on his own or decide he's not going to give any info until he has someone to help him negotiate a better deal.)

I think classifying him as an enemy combatant has some problems. In fact, I think they really mean an unlawful combatant. If he's an enemy combatant, we're acknowledging his actions as a legitimate act of war and he should be held as a POW until the war ends (in fact, most of the Gitmo residents would have been released already if we had some country besides the US where we could release them).

Except in this case, the opposing force was an "army" of two, they've been defeated, and now we release all the POWs - in this case, the surviving suspect. I don't think we really want to do that. But if we did, then we could turn around and prosecute him for war crimes, since there was obviously no military value in the target they chose. I still think that's a really stupid idea.

Even if they mean an unlawful combatant, I think there's some problems. Do some people really want to reraise the issue that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to unlawful combatants (including mercenaries) and so we're justified in torturing them? It's true that the Geneva Convention can't be used to protect unlawful combatants, but that doesn't mean they have no human rights (after all, it's not the government that gives us those rights and it's not the government that can take those rights away).

Plus, this would be a bad case to use to reraise the issue. It's very doubtful Tsarnaev has any information useful enough to justify torture. In this case, I'd feel like we torturing him just to show we can and I think that would definitely be a war crime in itself.

Maybe there's some other benefit to classifying him as an "unlawful" enemy combatant, but I don't really see what that is, based on the appearance that these two seem to have acted entirely on their own (at least based on the info available to the public right now).

 

[nsaspook]

Miranda in this case is IMO a unimportant formality (that should be done) for him or the government.

The only thing he can tell them that's important is information about a possible cell or supporters. He's fried 100x times from thousands of frames of videos, digital images , police shootouts and eye witnesses that saw him drop the bomb. The guy is smart and surely knows about his rights without being Mirandized. He has two options, talk and possibility avoid the death penalty if he has valuable information or fry.

Calling him a "combatant" of any kind would give him an honor that's not warranted for a murdering bastard.

 

[turbo]

He can't "fry". He will get multiple life terms, but Mass doesn't execute people.

 

[nsaspook]

He can't "fry". He will get multiple life terms, but Mass doesn't execute people.

Terrorist is a federal crime. He will be tried in federal court.

 

[Evo]

If he survives to be jailed, they will have to keep him in solitary confinement, and with guards, he won't last a day if he's placed with other prisoners, IMO.

 

[Evo]

More info.

Horrific New Info on How Boston Suspect Drove Over Older Brother in Midnight Escape

He relayed the horrific scene where Dzhokhar allegedly drove over his older brother:
"[Tamerlan] all of a sudden comes out from under cover and just starts walking down the street, shooting at our police officers, trying to get closer," Deveau said. "Now, my closest officer is five to 10 feet away, and they're exchanging gunfire between them. And he runs out of ammunition -- the bad guy -- and so one of my police officers comes off the side and tackles him in the street.
"We're trying to get him handcuffed. There's two or three police officers handcuffing him in the street -- the older brother. At the same time, at the last minute -- they obviously have tunnel vision, it's a very, very stressful situation -- one of them yells out, 'Look out!' and here comes the black SUV, the carjacked car, directly at them. They dive out of the way, and he (the younger brother) drives over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street."

http://news.yahoo.com/horrific-boston-suspect-drove-over-older-brother-midnight-235428993.html?_sr=1

An eyewitness on tv said the dead suspect was dragged ~20 feet by his brother.

 

[cristo]

More info.



http://news.yahoo.com/horrific-boston-suspect-drove-over-older-brother-midnight-235428993.html?_sr=1

An eyewitness on tv said the dead suspect was dragged ~20 feet by his brother.

There are conflicting reports (and eyewitnesses are not always to be believed!). The doctor who tried to save him saw no evidence of this on the body:

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinio...04/er_doctor_bombing_suspect_died_at_hospital

When asked about reports that Tsarnaev was run over by his fleeing brother Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Wolfe said he did not see any obvious injuries that would back up that theory.

“I certainly did not see any tire marks or the usual things we see with someone run over by a car,” he said.

 

[ImaLooser]

I tried reading up a little on this and the verbiage is a little too technical for me. I have a couple of questions, if anyone knows.
What's the big deal with reading the Miranda rights in the first place? Doesn't a person have rights regardless if they've been read to them or not? And what does delaying him the reading of his rights have to do with public safety?

It is a rather strange game. Consult a lawyer for an opinion.

 

[ImaLooser]

Isn't it so that a suspect isn't coerced into saying something that will incriminate him under a high-pressure interrogation environment, and so it is clear that he knows he has the right to remain silent, and to consult a lawyer. This suspect will still have the rights, he just doesn't have to be reminded of them. So if the first thing he says is that he wants a lawyer, and will invoke his right to remain silent, then there will be no difference to any other arrest. And, since this suspect is probably smart, I can't see him talking without a lawyer! (I guess this is what Evo was thinking, when she said it will probably do them no good).

This is SO twentieth century.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.boston.com/businessupdates/2013/04/19/cops-request-dunkin-donuts-stays-open/a981LXWXrfuZAAgnIM1YjL/story.html

Law enforcement asked the chain to keep some restaurants open in locked-down communities to provide hot coffee and food to police and other emergency workers, including in Watertown, the focus of the search for the bombing suspect. Dunkin’ is providing its products to them for free.

“At the direction of authorities, select Dunkin’ Donuts restaurants in the Boston area are open to take care of needs of law enforcement and first responders,” spokeswoman Lindsay Harrington explained via email. “We are encouraging our guests to state home today and abide by the lockdown, per the Governor’s recommendation.”

 

[jim hardy]

Well it may not have been history's most graceful capture ever,

but they got 'er done.

I really wish the homeowner had talked the kid into surrendering.
His sailboat wouldn't be full of bulletholes.

 

[leroyjenkens]

I hope he survives... so we can kill him.

 

[russ_watters]

What's the big deal with reading the Miranda rights in the first place? Doesn't a person have rights regardless if they've been read to them or not? And what does delaying him the reading of his rights have to do with public safety?

I always thought it was strange that people had to be informed of their rights. People should know what their rights are and the police/public should not be punished for the ignorance of a criminal.

But it is the law, so it has to be done that way. It worries me that they haven't Mirandized him because I don't want him to get acquitted on a technicality. My personal opinions on his treatment aside, he is an American citizen and won't be sent to 'Gitmo for a military tribunal, so I think they should be careful/strict with their procedures.

The issue of gaining intelligence doesn't seem relevant to me here. First, terrorists generally are proud of their acts and will sing regardless of if their lawyer tells them not to. Second, I suspect they have a pretty good idea that these guys were lone wolfs and even if they trained in Chechnya, we don't want to be inserting ourselves into that fight. The Chechens have said they aren't against us and I don't think we should use this as an excuse to start a war with them.

 

[Monique]

I always thought it was strange that people had to be informed of their rights. People should know what their rights are and the police/public should not be punished for the ignorance of a criminal.

The average IQ is 100, that means many people have an IQ of below 100. In a population about 1-3% are intellectually disabled with an IQ below 70, the intellectually disabled are overrepresented in prisons. I've never heard of rights being taught in school or examinations needing to be passed on the subject. Then how is it strange that people need to be informed?

Using a stratified random sampling frame, data were collected from 185 young adult male prisoners aged 18 and 21 years old. [..]
Ten per cent had an IQ composite of 69 or below, indicating a significant impairment in cognitive functioning. A further 10% had IQ composite scores between 70 and 74, and 14% between 75 and 79.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19207280

 

[Evo]

Well it may not have been history's most graceful capture ever,

but they got 'er done.

I really wish the homeowner had talked the kid into surrendering.
His sailboat wouldn't be full of bulletholes.

I read this morning that there is a fund started to buy him a new boat, which, of course, will be retracted later today.

 

[BobG]

But it is the law, so it has to be done that way. It worries me that they haven't Mirandized him because I don't want him to get acquitted on a technicality. My personal opinions on his treatment aside, he is an American citizen and won't be sent to 'Gitmo for a military tribunal, so I think they should be careful/strict with their procedures.

The issue of gaining intelligence doesn't seem relevant to me here. First, terrorists generally are proud of their acts and will sing regardless of if their lawyer tells them not to. Second, I suspect they have a pretty good idea that these guys were lone wolfs and even if they trained in Chechnya, we don't want to be inserting ourselves into that fight. The Chechens have said they aren't against us and I don't think we should use this as an excuse to start a war with them.

The only thing failing to Mirandize him would do is possibly make anything he says during the interrogation inadmissable in his own trial, plus any evidence they obtain as a result of his interrogation could possibly be affected. It won't affect the evidence obtained independently of the interrogation. So I think the risk in this particular case is really small.

I agree about any possible Chechen connection. If anything, it tends to support the idea that these two were acting on some agenda they thought up on their own rather than as part of a group (or at least as part of a Chechen group).

 

[Vanadium 50]

It worries me that they haven't Mirandized him because I don't want him to get acquitted on a technicality.

Unlikely. If a non-Mirandized subject says "I did it, and the gun is over there", the State cannot use the statement at trial, but they can use the gun. This is unlike, for example, a warrentless search, where they would not be able to use any information that came from the search, even indirectly.

There is also a public safety exemption. The State can ask the subject questions like "is there another bomb about to go off" without jeopardizing their case against the subject. Obviously, the later they wait to do this, the less likely a judge will agree that public safety covers this.

 

[Evo]

They can still decide to mirandize him, they have not started questioning him yet. If they had read him his rights when they captured him, the whiners would complain that he wasn't cognizant enough to understand and accuse the police. Someone is always going to complain.

I think they should go ahead and read him his rights, there is little doubt that he is already aware of them, anyone that has watched tv in the last 10 years would know them, heck small children can probably recite the first two lines.

 

[Vanadium 50]

plus any evidence they obtain as a result of his interrogation could possibly be affected.

I am not a lawyer, but do not believe this is true. I believe that it is only true for Fourth Amendment cases, but not here. (See United States v. Patane)

 

[Astronuc]

There's an IR image taken from the police helicopter that shows him hiding on the boat.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...-hero-after-bombing-suspect-tsarnaev-is-found

Boston Update: Officials Wait To Question Suspect; Memorial Held Sunday
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...wait-to-question-suspect-memorial-held-sunday

He's intubated and sedated apparently with several gunshot wounds including one to the neck.

Mayor Menino apparently indicated that the two brothers worked alone. Yet authorities are waiting for Dzhokhar to recover to the point where he can be questioned.


Meanwhile - "Hundreds of residents gathered Sunday to pray, to sing and to pay tribute to the three people who died Monday — Martin Richard, 8; Lingzi Lu, 23; Krystle Campbell, 29 — and MIT police Officer Sean Collier, 26, who was slain Thursday, as well as the more than 170 [~186] people who were injured."

Boston Newlyweds Face Amputation Rehab — Together
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/04/newlyweds-hurt-at-marathon-face-amputation-rehab-together

 

[AlephZero]

The Chechens have said they aren't against us and I don't think we should use this as an excuse to start a war with them.

Considering the conflict in Chechnya started within a few years of the American Declaration of Independence, and is still ongoing, somehow I don't think the US military would be working on the right time scale to fix the problem, even if they were dumb enough to try!

 

[nsaspook]

Considering the conflict in Chechnya started within a few years of the American Declaration of Independence, and is still ongoing, somehow I don't think the US military would be working on the right time scale to fix the problem, even if they were dumb enough to try!

Most of the people in Chechnya have been in a living hell for the last 20 years and most just want to lead normal lives. The jihadist are a very small faction of even the most radical separatist in the region.

This is a somewhat biased report but it shows the progress in the area and some culture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e84rNrhv8yk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Astronuc]

In the days that followed, investigators examining thousands of images from surveillance video, media coverage and spectators taking pictures were able to pick out two men as suspects, later identified as the Tsarnaev brothers.

On Tuesday, the day after the attack, the younger Tsarnaev was working out in the gym at the University of Massachusetts-Dartmouth, listening to music on his iPod, when he struck up a conversation with fellow sophomore Zach Bettencourt.

Bettencourt said he and Tsarnaev chatted about the bombings.

"It's crazy this is happening now," Bettencourt recalled Tsarnaev telling him. "This (these bombings) is so easy to do. These tragedies happen all the time in Afghanistan and Iraq."

Police said the Tsarnaev brothers made enough additional bombs for them to believe that more attacks were planned. They were also armed with handguns. A shootout with police in the Boston suburb of Watertown early Friday morning left more than 200 spent shell casings in the street.

Neither Tsarnaev brother was licensed to own guns in the towns where they lived, Cambridge, Massachusetts, authorities said on Sunday.

http://news.yahoo.com/hospitalized-suspect-boston-bombings-awaits-charges-under-guard-004558605.html

Some experts have concluded that the two brothers were planning to continue their criminal activities.

I think the bolded statement is telling (perhaps the younger one found that to be justification to do the same in the US), as is the fact that he casually appeared on campus the next day.

Update: The surviving suspect in the marathon bombings was indicted on explosives charges at his hospital bed, where he admitted to a role in the attacks and said he and his brother had acted alone.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/us/boston-marathon-bombings-developments.html

Judge Bowler then read Mr. Tsarnaev his rights. Also present were two United States attorneys and three federal public defenders, who will be representing him. Judge Bowler asked if he understood his right to remain silent, to which he nodded affirmatively, according to the transcript.

The only word Mr. Tsarnaev uttered, apparently, was “No,” after he was asked if he could afford a lawyer.

Judge Bowler said, “Let the record reflect that I believe the defendant has said, ‘No.’ ”

At the end of the session, Judge Bowler said: “At this time, at the conclusion of the initial appearance, I find that the defendant is alert, mentally competent, and lucid. He is aware of the nature of the proceedings.” If convicted, he faces the death penalty or life behind bars.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/363201342213441988148.pdf

The Federal charge. Note the criminal definition of WMD “destructive device” is different than the military meaning of WMD.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/04/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-charges/index.html

 

[Astronuc]

http://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/363201342213441988148.pdf

The Federal charge. Note the criminal definition of WMD “destructive device” is different than the military meaning of WMD.

Yes and no.

From the US Code:

Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

18 USC § 2332a - Use of weapons of mass destruction

(c) Definitions.— For purposes of this section—

(2) the term “weapon of mass destruction” means—
(A) any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title;

(B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;
(C) any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector (as those terms are defined in section 178 of this title); or
(D) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life;

So the US code lowers the bar so low, that there seems very little, other than a hand held gun or knife or blunt instrument is a WMD.


I would rather they simply go with a charge of premeditated or 1st degree murder and prosecute it as a state criminal case, and throw in criminal possession of firearms, explosives, . . . .

Update: Simple Boston Bomb Plot Hatched Without Foreign Help, Authorities Believe
http://gma.yahoo.com/simple-boston-bomb-plot-hatched-without-foreign-help-082418368--abc-news-topstories.html

Authorities tell ABC News they now believe the two foreign-born brothers were inspired to violence by the Internet preaching's of al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, the charismatic American-born radical jihadist, who has been dead now for more than a year. They used instructions from an al Qaeda Internet magazine to make their pressure cooker bombs. And Dzhokhar, the younger of the brothers, may not have even known about the plot until a week or so before the attack, sources told ABC News.

Seth Jones, a counter-terror expert at the RAND Corporation, said the attack's simplicity and home grown origins may wind up being some of the most chilling aspects the Boston bombing.

"This is kind of the al Qaeda modus operandi now, not relying only on operatives, but trying to get people do it yourself radicalization to build their own bombs without coming to a training camp in Pakistan or Yemen or other locations," Jones said.

"They ad-libbed part of it and made some decisions on a few elements of the bomb making but what's different about this is they took a very simple recipe and then targeted the Boston Marathon," Jones said. "And why the marathon? Because it was there, essentially, and easy. Not long in the planning."

Feds Look Into Accused Bomber's Dark Side
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/feds-accused-bombers-dark-side/story?id=19018798

Boston Suspects Are Seen as Self-Taught and Fueled by Web
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/us/boston-marathon-bombing-developments.html

Unraveling Boston Suspects’ Online Lives, Link by Link
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/us/unraveling-brothers-online-lives-link-by-link.html

 

[nsaspook]

Yes and no.

From the US Code:

Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

Yes, the definitions are different and no, you don't like the civilian version. In general I agree the civilian bar is too low but the Boston bombing would meet almost any version of the US Code for WMD use from a non-combatant dating back to the 1934 law that defined what a “destructive device” was.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/03/when_did_ieds_become_wmd.html

There is nothing in the congressional record showing why then-Sen. Joseph Biden, who drafted the language, defined the term so broadly, but the bill was introduced a few months after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, in which conventional weapons killed six and wounded more than 1,000 people.

http://www.ndu.edu/press/lib/pdf/CSWMD-OccasionalPapers/CSWMD_OccationalPaper-8.pdf

 

[Borg]

The mother is adamantly claiming that her sons aren't guilty. I wonder if she believes in her own guilt?

http://news.yahoo.com/mother-accused-bombers-faces-her-015923054.html

The mother of accused Boston Marathon bombers has continued to defend her two sons from her home in Dagestan, Russia, but if she attempts to return to the United States to bury her older son, or care for the boy that remains hospitalized, she could face arrest on an outstanding warrant for shoplifting.

 

[nsaspook]

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinio...4/tamerlan_tsarnaev_got_mass_welfare_benefits

Relatives and news reports have indicated that Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s descent into extremist Islam began around 2008 or 2009, when the ethnic Chechen met a convert identified only as “Misha,” began to become more devout, and sought out jihadist and conspiracy theorist websites, and the rabidly anti-Semitic propaganda tract, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”

A real and deadly version of Four Lions.

 

[OmCheeto]

A real and deadly version of Four Lions.

I hope he survives... so we can kill him.

You two have my vote for funniest next year.

:rofl:

If I survive, of course.

 

[Borg]

I'm really getting annoyed at the mother's press statements about the bombing being faked, her sons being set up and murdered by the government, etc. Everything is a conspiracy with her where everyone but her sons are to blame. She is really disgusting.

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm really getting annoyed at the mother's press statements about the bombing being faked, her sons being set up and murdered by the government, etc. Everything is a conspiracy with her where everyone but her sons are to blame. She is really disgusting.

[IMHO]
Actually, many people from that region of the world would talk just like she is. As far as I can tell, it's an old world thing.

Astronuc and I had a brief disagreement a few years ago regarding the "Kosovo" incident. It's a form of "It's never my fault, nor the fault of my nation. It's their fault".[/IMHO]

I seem to remember Fareed Zakaria stating something to the effect, after 9/11; "The old world angst, has finally arrived in the new world".

Or something like that. It's been awhile since he's been affiliated with PBS.

 

[edward]

CIA had bombers name.

The CIA had Tamerlan Tsarnaev's name put into a terror watchlist after being contacted by Russian authorities in 2011, sources told Fox News -- raising more questions about why the Boston bomber's trip to Russia the following year didn't raise more red flags.

In October 2011, the CIA sent information to many federal agencies and to "the watchlisting system" about him, the sources say. That step ultimately put him on the vast TIDE database of people potentially tied to terrorism cases.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...wice-in-2011-about-tamerlan-tsarnaev-sources/

I think this was a big mistake the TIDE list has more than 800,000 names in it. It just fell through the cracks like the guys learning how to fly but not interested in learning how to land.

 

[Evo]

We gather a lot of information, but seem to be able to do nothing with it.