News Father of US Marine killed in Iraq ordered to pay.

[Evo]

I don't know. So they call him a fag. Well he was gay. Is that slander?

Do they have the right to disrupt a private funeral?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Do they have the right to disrupt a private funeral?

I am uncertain of the circumstances of the protest. Were they protesting inside during the wake, on the public cemetery grounds during burial, or outside on the sidewalk yelling?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

And where did you get the information that Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder was a homosexual?

Have you seen all of the signs that WBO has used in their protests? They are sickening.

There should be a case of public indecency filed against them also. You have no right to expose children to such retched words and phrases.

I just assumed since the organization does the protests for gay soldiers. Perhaps he is not. Don't assume I am defending them as I deplore them.

 

[russ_watters]

Outside...where they were, exactly, I don't know, but I wouldn't think it matters. If their intent is to harass the people at the funeral, all that really matters is that they succeeded. They were there because of the funeral and doing what they were doing in order to harass the people at the funeral. They were not doing an unconnected demonstration that just so happened to annoy people at a funteral.

It seems like an obvious case of harassment to me and one that would not be protected. I would bet money that the father will get the legal help he needs and the leaders of the Westboro Baptist Church will eventually see fines and possibly even jail time over this.

...they protest/harass soldiers and gays. Separate (usually) purposes.

 

[Evo]

Here is the information.

The basic facts of the case are clear enough. Marine Lance Corporal Matthew A. Snyder was killed in Iraq in the line of duty. His funeral, held in Westminster, Maryland, was picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church. The church held signs that read, “You are going to hell,” “God hates you,” “Thank God for dead soldiers,” and “Semper fi fags.” Following the funeral, the church posted on its website (godhatesfags.com) an “epic” entitled “The Burden of Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder.” Matthew’s burden, as the church saw it, was that he had been “raised for the devil” and “taught to defy God.”

http://www.pennstatelawreview.org/a...-phelps-and-the-limits-of-religious-advocacy/

 

[turbo]

Westboro picks military funerals to protest, regardless of the sexual orientation of the dead service-people. Their signs claim that God wants our soldiers dead in retribution for the US's tolerance of gays and that the deaths are God's pay-back.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Slander is the biggest thing that the good guys have going for them IMO.

Also, isn't it required that you need a permit to have a gathering on public ground? Since the police were there enforcing a barricade, it shows that WBO most likely had a permit. Why in Gods name would a town give these loonies a permit to protest?

Because they sue towns that don't give them permits and win lots of money

 

[MotoH]

I just assumed since the organization does the protests for gay soldiers. Perhaps he is not. Don't assume I am defending them as I deplore them.

Ahh simple misunderstanding then.

As it has been said just before this post, they protest both soldiers and gays.

I can't find a link to the article, but there was one time where a biker gang all held up giant flags to block the funeral procession from seeing the WBO protesters.

 

[Max Faust]

This is what's idiotic about America.

If anybody did something similar in my country (Norway) and a family member got really upset and killed some of the offensive people (who shouldn't be there in the first place, they are violating all common ideas of decency), they would have gotten perhaps 1 or 2 year prison sentence for that (because you shouldn't kill people, but some times you are justified in being angry). So things like this won't happen. And that's the end of it. You are not "free" to insult grieving people over the loss of their loved ones no matter how you feel about the "principle of law". ****in' hell, they ought to be happy that they're alive! If something like that happened here, they would have gotten beat up so bad (and possibly even killed) that it isn't even funny! And that's JUSTICE!

 

[DavidSnider]

I don't know. So they call him a fag. Well he was gay. Is that slander?

"I don't know. So they call him a cool person. Well, he's black. Is that slander?"

Come on.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

"I don't know. So they call him a cool person. Well, he's black. Is that slander?"

Come on.

Sure it's offensive, but is it a lie? In this case it seems it is. But what if he was gay?

 

[Evo]

Sure it's offensive, but is it a lie? In this case it seems it is. But what if he was gay?

Does his sexual orientation give them the right to harass individuals, especially at a funeral? Does it ever give the right?

We have laws against discrimenation.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Does his sexual orientation give them the right to harass individuals, especially at a funeral? Does it ever give the right?

We have laws against discrimenation.

If I wanted to protest outside your door because you dyed your hair blond, I think I could. I think we need to find out the local laws regarding protesting in that city. Right now I think free speech will hold. But the law is a gray area and those who want to pay to make the arguments will win.

edit: yes even I noticed the number of "I think" in my post :)

 

[Evo]

If I wanted to protest outside your door because you dyed your hair blond, I think I could. I think we need to find out the local laws regarding protesting in that city. Right now I think free speech will hold. But the law is a gray area and those who want to pay to make the arguments will win.

Actually, in my county, I know the local sheriff and you'd be hauled off and never seen again.

I don't know the specifics of this case, so I can only say if they were on cemetary grounds, they would be held to whatever the cemetary allowed, not the same as on public property.

 

[turbo]

Let's refocus. Westboro loons/goons picket ANY service-person's funeral, regardless of the sexual orientation of the soldier. They claim that God wants our soldiers killed because the US is tolerant of gay people. This is just a brain-cell or so removed from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's claims that civil rights groups, liberals and gay-tolerant government caused God to punish the US with the Twin-Tower 9 11 attacks.

 

[russ_watters]

I doubt it, Greg. Here's one state's law (first I could come up with):

A person (defendant) knowingly pursuing a pattern of conduct;
The pattern of conduct is intended to annoy, seriously alarm or terrorize another person;
The pattern of conduct serves no lawful purpose; and
The conduct must be such that it would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress.

http://jecclassroom.unm.edu/stalking/02-stalking-law.php

It can't be [successfully] argued that freedom of speech is the "lawful purpose" because the speech isn't for the purpose of expression (otherwise, there would be no need to do it at the funeral/Evo's door).
[edit] Let me rephrase that last sentence, since that is precisely what actually happened (it was successfully argued in front of one court): It won't be successfully argued in front of the USSC that this is protected free speech. That's a prediction.

Here's the wiki with some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#Laws_limiting_funeral_protests

 

[Max Faust]

I think free speech will hold

Somebody's "free speech" shouldn't imply somebody else's duty to listen.

It's been a while since I read the American State Papers, but I believe this was covered at least in intent if not in details. Personally, I find it horrific that anyone can think it is a matter of "free speech" to insult somebody who died (no matter for what reason) and I can assure you - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that if this was my brother, if you came to me with insults like that, I would kill you. No mercy. No hesitation. The lowest thing anyone can do is to insult the dead. I can feel how I get enraged even at the idea!

 

[Max Faust]

I want to add:

Why do American Government protect villains like this? The people at the funeral should have apprehended and hanged them. That would have been just and right.

 

[Evo]

I want to add:

Why do American Government protect villains like this? The people at the funeral should have apprehended and hanged them. That would have been just and right.

Welcome to America, where prejudice and discrimination are protected.

 

[turbo]

Right now I think free speech will hold.

There is the little matter of sedition, and if this appeal goes to the SC the case will probably be seen in a few more dimensions other than "free speech". Regardless of how right-wing many of the members of the court might be, I find it hard to believe that a majority on the bench will give the Westboro loons carte-blanche to trash our fallen soldiers when they are being mourned in private services and incite hatred against gays, Jews, etc while claiming that our country's public policies are causing God to bring suffering upon us. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

BTW, if a "church" is engaging in overtly political activism, that "church" should not enjoy tax-free status in the future. The Roman Catholic Church in Maine pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into the fight against allowing gay marriage, and provided much more in in-kind services from parishioners. There are some towns here that are in horrible financial shape in part because the church has bought valuable properties and pays NO taxes on them. That ought to change as soon as the church starts buying elections and referendums. Let them pay their way.

 

[elect_eng]

... I can assure you - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that if this was my brother, if you came to me with insults like that, I would kill you. No mercy. No hesitation. The lowest thing anyone can do is to insult the dead. ...

No that is not the lowest thing anyone can do. Killing someone for uttering words is lower.

 

[Evo]

No that is not the lowest thing anyone can do. Killing someone for uttering words is lower.

I think it's more of a moral rather than rather physical outrage.

 

[elect_eng]

Why do American Government protect villains like this?

The reason is very simple. The US founding fathers felt that it is much worse to let a Government become the villain. The protection of basic rights, like freedom of speech, is a protection against the government itself. If we give up these rights, we can initially stop individual villains from doing these annoying things, but we will then be powerless to stop being oppressed by the government itself.

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

 

[elect_eng]

I think it's more of a moral rather than rather physical outrage.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm morally outraged, physically outraged and emotionally outraged, as well as any other kind of outrage you can mention. Does this justify me killing someone for what they say or think? How moral would that be?

 

[Evo]

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

It seems that we have given ourselves over to the ignorant religious zealots.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What Americans need to do if they are so offended is to display a response. Let them know how we feel in a constructive and powerful way. We shouldn't expect government to handle everything, because they don't. Let's boycott and protest the protesters. Those who are upset should take action. Get off your butts boo-hooing on the internet and get something done.

 

[elect_eng]

It seems that we have given ourselves over to the ignorant religious zealots.

No more so than we have given ourselves over to the nats and mosquitos that try to bite us while we enjoy the breeze on a warm summer evening.

 

[Max Faust]

The reason is very simple. The US founding fathers felt that it is much worse to let a Government become the villain. The protection of basic rights, like freedom of speech, is a protection against the government itself. If we give up these rights, we can initially stop individual villains from doing these annoying things, but we will then be powerless to stop being oppressed by the government itself.

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

WTF are you talking about dude? Passive aggressive nonsense taken to the next level?
The post is about some people showing up at some guys funeral to insult and scorn his family.
WTF?
Do you consider that a "right"? They you are sick as well.
You have no right to insult and scorn the dead. Especially not the dead soldiers. Especially not if they died during some kind of - however misguided - campaign to protect YOUR stinking ***. F-- you.

 

[turbo]

Let's boycott and protest the protesters.

How will that help? The Westboro nuts don't care if they are ignored by the loved ones of the fallen soldiers, and counter-protests just put hate-mongers on an equal footing with outraged citizens who want to stop the idiocy. Our "media" has long since stopped reporting actual news and facts and will present every such confrontation as a a case of A vs B with no moral or ethical context. Watch TV on Sunday mornings to see this non-dynamic in action. Side A makes unsubstantiated claims, side B makes unsubstantiated claims (with various degrees of veracity on either side), and the hosts refuse to call out the liars. Just give them a forum, let them fight it out, and call it journalism. I never turn on the TV on Sunday mornings anymore. If I did, I'd throw a brick through the screen in about 5 minutes.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

How will that help?

I think we show a unified force of hundreds of thousands or millions they will listen. Of course this is fantasy.