Favorite crossword author, Merl Reagle

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The discussion centers around Merl Reagle's crossword puzzle featuring "trinonyms," which are words that share the same meaning, such as "bath," "tub," and "bathtub." Participants express their enjoyment of the puzzle and debate the validity of certain trinonyms, questioning whether all components of the trinonyms are true synonyms. Some argue that while "bathtub" is a type of "tub," not all tubs are bathtubs, complicating the synonym relationship. The conversation also explores linguistic concepts like word formation, context, and the evolution of language, with participants sharing additional examples of potential trinonyms and discussing the nuances of word meanings. Overall, the thread highlights a blend of appreciation for crossword puzzles and a deep dive into linguistic analysis.
  • #61
Moonbear said:
What about carjack?
close. but the trouble is that car and jack both have relationships with carjack, so I think it's difficult to classify it as a true triple non-relational.
Now, shampoo on the other hand...:biggrin: ok, that is disqualified for not being a true compound of two words but I thought it was funny.


As for the trinonyms, I really liked tincan at first, but it seems it's not a true compound, as I can only find "tin can" in the dictionaries. Same for "cell phone".

Zoob, I had forgotten all about the Chattanooga Choochoo!
 
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  • #62
Shampoo. :biggrin:
Math Is Hard said:
As for the trinonyms, I really liked tincan at first, but it seems it's not a true compound, as I can only find "tin can" in the dictionaries. Same for "cell phone".
If the empty space between the words is what bothers you, I don't think it should. Writing systems aren't the best reflection of a language's structure; speech (or gesture for sign languages) is much better.

I think that a good test for whether a given segment of sound, string of letters, or whatever is functioning as a single unit is to try to rearrange its parts or insert other units into it.

Say the head is a noun (the same reasoning applies to other categories). (7a) and (7b) are two possible underlying structures of the Noun Phrase (7).

7) black bear
7a) [black bear]
7b) [black [bear]]

(7a) is a NP consisting of one noun and refers to some set of bear species which may or may not be black. (7b) is a NP consisting of an adjective and a noun and refers to any bear that is black. You can insert an adjective between another adjective and a noun, but you cannot insert an adjective into the middle of a noun, so (7bi) is fine, while (7ai) is just as bad as (8ai), where big is inserted into another NP consisting of one noun, bear:

7ai) *[black big bear]
7bi) [black [big [bear]]]

8) bear
8a) [bear]
8ai) *[bebigar]

Hm, maybe that was too much explanation. It's pretty obvious to me. A big teddy bear isn't the same thing as a teddy big bear (I don't even know what a teddy big bear is).

Also, many English compounds are pronouned differently than their non-compound counterparts. The stress is placed on the first word in compounds but on the second word in the ordinary phrases:

cold cream (compound meaning a face cream) // cold cream (phrase meaning a cream that is cold)
blackbird (compound meaning a member of a certain family of birds) // black bird (phrase meaning a bird that is black)
black bear (designates several species of bear, I think) // black bear (any bear that is black)

So this is another test, though failing this test doesn't mean a phrase isn't a compound. Only passing the test tells you something.

Blackbird and black bear function in English as if they are the same type of thing, a compound. (And they are both treated as compounds by linguists.) I think the empty space in their written forms is superficial and largely (though not entirely) accidental -- it's more conventional than rule-governed. You can find plenty of variation in the way the 'same' compound is written (with a space, a hyphen, or no space).

Anywho, asking whether a big tin can is the same thing as a tin big can should help you determine whether (this one meaning of) tin can is a compound or not.

I meant to bring up the writing system thing regarding the search for russian doll words. I think it would be more efficient to try to look for some processes that would form russian doll words than to just look for russian doll words.
siddharth's sig said:
Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration -Thomas A. Edison,

If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search... I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor -Nikola Tesla
The processes that change words take speech into account. If they take spelling into account at all, it is as an afterthought. Even if you really want the spelling to be the same, I still think looking at these process would help your search.

For example, as far as affixation, the process that formed satiate from sate, is concerned, -ible and -able are the same suffix. (And that we spell them differently is, IMO, just stupid.) I don't think you should ignore anything, but if you're going to ignore something, I would ignore spelling, not speech.

Satiate gives you a series of processes already. They mean the same because sate is a verb ending in ate:

a) choose a verb ending in ate;
b) suffix a suffix to (a) that changes its category but not its meaning;
bx) repeat (b) x times;
c) suffix -ate to (bx).

(c) changes (a)'s category back to verb without changing its meaning. So find more verbs that end in ate and do the same thing. I'm not sure yet what the middle steps were, if there even were any (I assume there is some reason for the word's redundancy).
 
  • #63
zoobyshoe said:
You're still resisting "pussycat" and "barenaked"? Here I am trying to amuse and entertain you with these word forms you seem to like, I find what I think are three good ones in a row, bam, bam, bam, and now I have to fight to get you to accept them!
Whoa! You're reading way too much into my response (or lack of).

Should we reject "pussycat" because half of it has come to have a vulgar meaning when used by itself? You seem concerned that the cross-word guy would be thrown into some kind of decency dilema when considering if he could bring this example up. That, if true, is a separate sort of problem I don't have to resolve. All I can say is "pussycat" fits the form you're looking for to a T.
I never said reject pussycat. I thought it was better than kittycat.
Is "barenaked" too regional? I think "ratfink, oleomargarine", and "taperecord" have the vastly worse disadvantage of having gone completely out of use altogether. It seems to me if we forgive them that, any regionalism "barenaked" might have (what region is this from, anyway?) should be overlooked.
I said I thought it was excellent but expressed my honest hesitations about it.

Zoob, you get all three. It's a hat trick! My only hold-out was choochootrain but you convinced me that choochoo and train could be synonymous.
 
  • #64
If the empty space between the words is what bothers you, I don't think it should. Writing systems aren't the best reflection of a language's structure; speech (or gesture for sign languages) is much better.
No, doesn't bother me a bit, but I think the inventor of the game might balk. My observation was that all of his trinonyms were true compound words, no separations, no hyphenation.

I wonder if the author is lurking around here, cackling with glee, enjoying the seeds of discord he's sowing at PF. I'm convinced Merl Reagle is one of Satan's minions.

Show yourself, Merl! You cad! Crosshole!:mad:
 
  • #65
Math Is Hard said:
I wonder if the author is lurking around here, cackling with glee, enjoying the seeds of discord he's sowing at PF. I'm convinced Merl Reagle is one of Satan's minions.

Show yourself, Merl! You cad! Crosshole!:mad:

Oh, sure! Blame him, you spawn of the underworld!

http://www.artonyou.com/Evil%20Barbie%20Demon1.jpg

We know who started this thread!
 
  • #66
Math Is Hard said:
No, doesn't bother me a bit, but I think the inventor of the game might balk. My observation was that all of his trinonyms were true compound words, no separations, no hyphenation.
Oh, right, they were used for a crossword. I guess empty spaces and hyphens aren't so welcome in crosswords. :frown:

Still, assuming Merl is reading (:smile:), my point was that if there is any separation, it is only in the writing system, and even then, it is largely arbitrary. There is a 'rule' that we use blank spaces to separate words. But it isn't clear what to do with compounds because, from one perspective, a compound is one word, and from another perspective, a compound is two words. Hyphenation is a compromise, but not everyone uses this or uses it consistently. That's the thing about writing systems: they don't seem to be part of the innate part of language, i.e., there are no innate writing rules as there are other innate linguistc rules. Our writing systems are derived from our speech systems. Throw in all their arbitrariness and it's oftentimes a crapshoot. But I digress/rant.

Anywho, my satiate example was quick and sloppy, so just forget it. (And that might not even be what happened to sate.) The basic idea is the same: pieces are added that end up leading back to the original meaning. One thing you might want to look for are what I'll call russian doll http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAStem.htm-http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAnAffixLinguistics.htm pairs, or RDSAP.

The affixes that English mainly uses are prefixes and suffixes. Affixes can be defined by specifyng their form(s), the lexical category to which they affix, the lexical category that they form, and the rough meaning that they contribute (the meanings can be quite peculiar since the meaning of the resulting word is derived from the meaning of the stem). For example, -er affixes to verbs to form nouns meaning roughly a thing that [verb]s (e.g., a singer is a thing that sings, a hunter is a thing that hunts).

You want the affix of a RDSAP to have the same resulting lexical category as the stem of the RDSAP. You have some options with their meanings, which are complicated anyway. Obviously, for the more interesting ones, the meanings of the affix and stem would 'agree' in some way, but yah, I'm not sure how to be more specific than that. Boo meanings.

Anywho, the idea is that affix of the RDSAP is the last in the sequence of affixes that lead back to the meaning of the RDSAP's stem. Once you find the pair, you would look for middle steps and hopefully find several options.

Some admittedly uninteresting (you aren't likely to find people actually using them because they are so obviously redundant) but productive ones are affixes that can cancel themselves out. For example, (double) negation can do this with some meanings and doesn't change the category of the stem. So the affixes meaning roughly not [stem], un-, in-, the variants of in- (im-, il-, ir-), can give you an infinite set of RD words. For example, the set of all stems such that un-un-[stem] means [stem] is infinite (un-un-tie is enough to do that thanks to recursion, but there are probably other roots that work too).

Another uninteresting but promising idea is using stems that include a zero derivation, i.e., where the lexical category is changed without changing the form at all (to stone / a stone). Then you only need to find one affix (which is presumably easier than finding a sequence of affixes that work together). For the verb stone, you would want an affix that attached to nouns to form verbs meaning roughly to kill/bury/destroy with [noun]s. Pretend that -ate does this. Then you could affix it to the noun stone to get the verb meaning to stone, stonate -- ack! Spelling is so stupid! Lucky thing -ate has an e. It wasn't the greatest example anyway.

In addition to, or instead of, looking for stem-affix pairs, you could look for affix tuples, i.e., affixes that you can add in a certian order to get back to the meaning of the original stem. Once you find them, you can look for stems that they work on. Meaning is such a pain though.

It might be easier to find words that match a given affix's meaning rather than looking for affixes that match a given word's meaning since there are fewer affixes than words, i.e., start with affixes and then look for words. But yeah, I'll stop typing now.
 
  • #67
zoobyshoe said:
Oh, sure! Blame him, you spawn of the underworld!

http://www.artonyou.com/Evil%20Barbie%20Demon1.jpg

We know who started this thread!
that has to be one of the funniest pics in existence
 
  • #68
Oh, I found a backwards one! The complement is the one that doesn't fit: shoeshine.

I really liked gunslinger but I don't think slinger works (perhaps if we were in the Wild West. Ah, those were the good old days). You can use gun rhetorically to refer to a person. I want to find some synecdoche trinonyms.

Perhaps Merl should do a puzzle where the clues are the contexts in which those words would be trinonyms, e.g., Wild West is the clue for gunslinger. There are plenty of those. Gah, I really want gunslinger!
 
  • #69
Greenwood? I want to find a synecdoche trinonym involving land (even land meaning the people of the land, or country) (I just know there is one somewhere). (If I could only stop giggling about Woody Woodpecker). Wood here would mean forest. I'm not sure anyone uses green as a noun to mean forest. I've seen it used for vegetation, but perhaps that's not close enough. And perhaps wood is too general here anyway.

Oh, -land as in woodland and grassland might work with something I can't think of. Farmland? Bah.

I might have a pattern for shoeshine. What do you think of lunchbreak and handshake? Warmer? The process has something to do with the heads being verbs and becoming nouns for the compounds -- I just thought of those as I was falling asleep, so I'm sleepposting now. But you see the idea: you shine shoes, shake hands, break for lunch... if the same leeching process holds for the complements, now the heads that are normally verbs don't have as much competition, so it might solve that problem. That is, the head can also leech the compound's category. It might present new problems though. Anywho, :zzz:

Sheesh, almost asleep again. I forgot to mention that in quickly looking up some stuff earlier about -ate, it seems that an English process and a Latin process might work together to make lots of RD words. Latin, which is a highly-inflected language and, from what I understand, quite regular, seems to form past participles in such a way that, long story short, English ends up having words that it borrowed from Latin whose verb and adjective forms both end in -ate. For example, animate, situate, satiate. Now, English, as I mentioned, forms its past participles by suffixing -ed to the verb. Why is that cool? The resulting adjectives have the same meaning as the adjective forms from Latin. That is, the adjectives animated, situated, satiated mean the same as the adjectives animate, situate, satiate. Sure, it's only an extra d, but this is a nice find, I think. Also, since Latin inflection is quite regular and participle formation in English is productive, it's possible that ALL of those types of words that English borrowed from Latin are RD words. Someone have a good idea for how to find a list of those words? This time for real. :zzz:

OMG, someone please shoot me so I can get some sleep. If anyone wants to read this and see if there's a way to use wildcards to turn up a non-ginormous list of words ending in ate, http://www.onelook.com/?c=faq#patterns. If not, I'll look when I awake. Lots (like at least 1/3) of English words come from Latin, so it's not exactly small potatoes. Or something. :zzz:
 
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  • #70
Reagle responds

I'm a big fan of Merl's and also know him in passing. I dropped him a line and what he wrote is below. Barry Haldiman

i can't tell you how much i enjoyed the physicists' string on trinonyms! maybe you could pass this along to them.

i agree with them about the need for a strict definition of trinonym, and the following is what I've been telling people who write to me with their own suggestions.

"taxi cab" and "rat fink" are perfect trinonyms. the main rule i go by is that there must be a high level of "synonymic interchangeability" (or maybe "synerchangeability"?) among all three terms when used in a sentence. i used "bathtub" as my example because at the time i felt it legitimately passed this test -- "i'm going to hop in the bath," "i'm going to hop in the tub," "i'm going to hop in the bathtub." admittedly, there's a bathing context to this, which is why "tub" seems to work, but i now feel it falls into a category that i =don't= allow in which the "B" word is a generic term for the "A" word.

in other words, i wouldn't allow "jet plane" or its ilk because all planes aren't jets. this also leaves out "puppy dog," since all dogs aren't puppies. but i did allow "get on board" because it passed the interchangeability test -- "to get on a bus," "to board a bus," and "to get on board a bus" all mean the same thing, and there's no generic problem.

others I've found since the puzzle came out are "shapshot" and "smash hit." i think "teeny-weeny" works too, since "weeny" by itself is a legit dictionary entry. "itsy-bitsy" i probably would not allow, though, since I've never heard anyone use the word "itsy" by itself.

i have to admit that my inclination is to be a little lenient in accepting "close call" examples, like "comic strip," even though some comics are panels.

but otherwise my goal is to try to keep a trinonym is as specific a thing as possible -- A=B=AB.

--merl
 
  • #71
Thanks for passing that along, Barry. I just about fell over when I read it. What a thrill to get Merl's feedback! :smile:
 
  • #72
Here's an idea. [NOUN][ADJECTIVE] compounds, such as

ice cold
paper thin
feather light
lightning fast
rock hard
pillow soft
razor sharp
?blood red
?fire engine red​
could be a good source of trinonyms, depending on what exactly you want to count as a trinonym and what you take as your corpus.

You can form them by pretending that you're completing a simile by filling in the blanks below.

... is as cold as ice.
... is as light as a feather.
... is as [ADJECTIVE] as (a(n)/the) [NOUN].​
Now take out this [ADJECTIVE] and [NOUN] and invert them to form a [NOUN][ADJECTIVE] compound. The template is just to give you the idea. You're simply looking for a property (e.g., coldness) and an entity that can exemplify that property (e.g., ice).

Here's how it can give you trinonyms. In the above type of compounds, you're selecting one property of the noun's referent and using it to modify the adjective. The property of the noun's referent that gets selected is determined by the adjective accompanying the noun in the compound. So paper thin selects the thinness of the paper, razor sharp selects the sharpness of the razor, etc.

The noun seems to be acting in a way like an adverb, answering 'How [ADJECTIVE]?' or something similar (ones involving colors, for example, have been wiggling away from me so far (is the right constituent a property or entity?)). If you think the meaning of razor sharp is closer to very sharp than to sharp, just choose your noun so that the answer to 'How [ADJECTIVE]?' is 'moderately/normally/typically [ADJECTIVE]', or just plain '[ADJECTIVE]'. So now the compound and adjective have the same meaning.

The noun gets a chance to have the same meaning by being used as an adjective. Doing this will select the 'special' property or properties of the noun's referrent. You need to make it so that the property you want can be selected without needing a prompt from the adjective as before. That is, choose nouns that are 'known' for a particular property. For example, to me, the standout property of a razor is its sharpness, or its ability to cut. So when razor is used as an adjective, sharpness, or ability to cut, is the first property that I associate with it, taking razor to basically mean sharp or able to cut.

She has a razor sharp wit.
She has a sharp wit.
She has a razor wit.​

If anyone wants to play with it, I think it has potential. The issues that I see are how you feel about figurative speech and, if you are basing your judgements at least partly on how often it turns up somewhere, finding nouns that don't tend to take on affixes when used as adjectives. For example, -y has already popped up for me: ice, rose, pillow have the obvious icy, rosy, pillowy option when being used as adjectives, so you might not find the noun form as often. (Oh, duh, then you have icy cold, pillowy soft, etc. :biggrin:) You can experiment some to see what helps a noun resist taking on affixes when switching to an adjective function. Hm, -like might be productive, or close to it, but it has its drawbacks, so it might not pose much of a threat.

By the bye, '"razor wit"' returned 31,000 hits on google just now. '"razor like wit" OR "razorlike wit"' returned 303.
 
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  • #73
How about rucksack? Though the only second similee is spelled differently with rooke or rook being used by the military to refer to back packs. I could not find any other reference to the use of rook as meaning bag besides my own knowledge.
-scott
 
  • #74
Also textbook is one.
-scott
 
  • #75
Math Is Hard said:
My favorite crossword author, Merl Reagle, did a theme last Sunday on "trinonyms".
I hope you're not a big fan of Stanley Newman. In his April 28 crossword, the clue for 39 across: "Like slide rules"

O _ _ M _ _ E _

 
  • #76
BobG said:
I hope you're not a big fan of Stanley Newman. In his April 28 crossword, the clue for 39 across: "Like slide rules"

O _ _ M _ _ E _

HOW RUDE!:frown: I hope you sent him a nasty letter!
 

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