Find g: Solving a Set Theory Problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a function g from the set {0,1} to the set B\A, with the condition that f^-1(g(x)) = x + 2 for x ∈ {0,1}. Participants explore the implications of this requirement, the nature of the sets A and B, and the properties of functions, including surjectivity and Cartesian products.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks how to find a function g given the conditions, noting that it cannot be a bijection and questioning how to match values.
  • Another participant claims to have figured out the function by tracing values using the two-row representation of f.
  • Several participants express confusion about the elements in B\A and how to link them to the function g.
  • One participant raises a new problem regarding whether a Cartesian product can be mapped into another set, questioning the nature of the elements in P(A)\B.
  • Another participant suggests that P(A) should contain sets rather than integers, indicating a potential misunderstanding of set notation.
  • Concerns are raised about the surjectivity of the mapping from a Cartesian product to another set, with one participant noting that the number of elements in the co-domain exceeds that of the Cartesian product.
  • Participants discuss the definition of surjectivity, with some clarifying that it requires every element in the co-domain to have at least one corresponding element in the domain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the function g and the properties of surjectivity. There is no consensus on how to resolve the issues raised about the mapping and the nature of the sets involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in their understanding of set notation and the properties of functions, particularly regarding surjectivity and the nature of elements in power sets.

FallArk
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Find a function g from {0,1} to B\A such that f^-1(g(x)) = x +2 for x∈{0,1}. Present it in the 2-row form.
A = {{1},2,3} and B = {∅,1,{2},3}
I know that B\A = {∅,1,{2}} and f is a bijection from A to B\A
how do I find such function g? It obviously can't be bijection, how do I match one value to another?
 
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I figured it out, i just have to trace it using the function given to find for x=0 and 1 what is the corresponding values using the two row representation of f
 
FallArk said:
Find a function g from {0,1} to B\A such that f^-1(g(x)) = x +2 for x∈{0,1}. Present it in the 2-row form.
A = {{1},2,3} and B = {∅,1,{2},3}
I know that B\A = {∅,1,{2}} and f is a bijection from A to B\A
how do I find such function g? It obviously can't be bijection, how do I match one value to another?

Given A X (A∩B) = { ({1},3), (2,3), (3,3) }, and P(A)\B={ {1}, 2, {{1},2}, {{1},3}, {2,3}, {{1},2,3} }
does there exist a surjection from A X (A∩B) to P(A)\B?
 
FallArk said:
Find a function g from {0,1} to B\A such that f^-1(g(x)) = x +2 for x∈{0,1}. Present it in the 2-row form.
A = {{1},2,3} and B = {∅,1,{2},3}
I know that B\A = {∅,1,{2}} and f is a bijection from A to B\A
how do I find such function g? It obviously can't be bijection, how do I match one value to another?

Hey FallArk! (Smile)

If I understand correctly, we're talking about something like this:
\begin{tikzpicture}
%preamble \usetikzlibrary{shapes.geometric,fit}

\foreach \x in {0,1}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt, label=left:\x] (d\x) at (0,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(d0) (d1),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (D) {};

\foreach \x[count=\xi] in {0,1,2}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt] (b\xi) at (4,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(b1) (b2) (b3),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (BmA) {};
\node[above] at (BmA.north) {$B \setminus A$};

\foreach \x/\p[count=\xi] in {1/\{1\},2,3}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt, label=right:\p] (a\xi) at (8,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(a1) (a2) (a3),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (A) {};
\node[above] at (A.north) {$A$};

\draw[-latex] (d0) -- node[below] {$g(0)$} (b1);
\draw[-latex] (a2) -- node[above,xshift=8,yshift=12] {$f(2+0)$} (b1);
\draw[-latex] (d1) -- node[above] {$g(1)$} (b3);
\draw[-latex] (a3) -- node[above] {$f(2+1)$} (b3);
\draw[-latex] (a1) -- node[below right,xshift=10] {$f(1)$} (b2);
\end{tikzpicture}

However, we don't seem to have any information about which elements in $B \setminus A$ we should link to, do we? (Wondering)
 
I like Serena said:
Hey FallArk! (Smile)

If I understand correctly, we're talking about something like this:
\begin{tikzpicture}
%preamble \usetikzlibrary{shapes.geometric,fit}

\foreach \x in {0,1}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt, label=left:\x] (d\x) at (0,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(d0) (d1),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (D) {};

\foreach \x[count=\xi] in {0,1,2}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt] (b\xi) at (4,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(b1) (b2) (b3),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (BmA) {};
\node[above] at (BmA.north) {$B \setminus A$};

\foreach \x/\p[count=\xi] in {1/\{1\},2,3}{
\node[fill,circle,inner sep=2pt, label=right:\p] (a\xi) at (8,\x) {};
}
\node[fit=(a1) (a2) (a3),ellipse,draw,minimum width=1.5cm] (A) {};
\node[above] at (A.north) {$A$};

\draw[-latex] (d0) -- node[below] {$g(0)$} (b1);
\draw[-latex] (a2) -- node[above,xshift=8,yshift=12] {$f(2+0)$} (b1);
\draw[-latex] (d1) -- node[above] {$g(1)$} (b3);
\draw[-latex] (a3) -- node[above] {$f(2+1)$} (b3);
\draw[-latex] (a1) -- node[below right,xshift=10] {$f(1)$} (b2);
\end{tikzpicture}

However, we don't seem to have any information about which elements in $B \setminus A$ we should link to, do we? (Wondering)

I actually figured it out myself. But then I run into a new problem. Is it possible for a Cartesian product to be mapped into another set? (the third post is the problem)
 
FallArk said:
I actually figured it out myself. But then I run into a new problem. Is it possible for a Cartesian product to be mapped into another set? (the third post is the problem)

Okay.
For the record, it seems that $P(A)\setminus B$ contains elements that are integers, but $P(A)$ is supposed to only contain sets doesn't it? (Wondering)
I think it should contain {{1}} instead of {1}.
And {2}, which would then be removed by subtracting $B$.

And sure, we can map a cartesian product to another set.
I don't think the example will be surjective though, since the cartesian product contains 3 elements, and the co-domain contains more than 3 elements.
 
I like Serena said:
Okay.
For the record, it seems that $P(A)\setminus B$ contains elements that are integers, but $P(A)$ is supposed to only contain sets doesn't it? (Wondering)
I think it should contain {{1}} instead of {1}.
And {2}, which would then be removed by subtracting $B$.

And sure, we can map a cartesian product to another set.
I don't think the example will be surjective though, since the cartesian product contains 3 elements, and the co-domain contains more than 3 elements.

Ugh, this whole power set thing is so confusing... Surjective means something like for one y there could be more than one x right? So since there are more than 3 y-values, and only 3 x-values, it cannot be surjective.
 
FallArk said:
Ugh, this whole power set thing is so confusing... Surjective means something like for one y there could be more than one x right? So since there are more than 3 y-values, and only 3 x-values, it cannot be surjective.

Yep.
And more precisely, surjective means that for every y there has to be at least one x.
 

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