Is There a Fourth Fundamental Force Discovered in 1986?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a potential fourth fundamental force discovered in 1986, its implications for existing fundamental forces, and the possibility of unifying these forces. Participants explore the nature of fundamental forces, the historical context of the fourth force claim, and ongoing efforts in theoretical physics to unify these forces.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that there are three fundamental forces: gravitational, strong nuclear, and quark-quark forces, with confusion about the classification of these forces.
  • One participant recalls that the fourth force results were not confirmed and were attributed to experimental errors.
  • A participant mentions that in 1986, measurements of gravitational force deviated from the expected 1/r² relationship, leading to speculation about a fifth force, but later experiments did not support this idea.
  • There is discussion about the unification of the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces, with some participants noting that while progress is being made, they are not fully unified in current theories.
  • Some participants differentiate between Grand Unified Theories (GUTs) and Theories of Everything (TOEs), highlighting the inclusion of gravity in the latter.
  • One participant introduces the idea that dark energy or dark matter could be explained by a fifth force, while others suggest modifying existing theories rather than introducing a new force.
  • The Casimir effect is mentioned as a potential candidate for a fifth force, linked to vacuum energy disturbances between closely spaced plates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and implications of a fourth or fifth fundamental force, with no consensus reached on the validity of the claims or the current understanding of force unification.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions of forces, the historical context of the fourth force claim, and the implications of various theories on force unification. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and hypotheses without definitive conclusions.

shanu_bhaiya
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We know that there are three fundamental forces:

1. Gravitational Force
2. Strong Nuclear Force
3. Quark-Quark Force (unified by Weak Nuclear and Electromagnetic Force)

I've heard about the fourth fundamental force which was found in 1986 and changed the relation:
F = G*m*M/R*R
to some another relation.

If you know about this force please briefly describe that here...and also that changed relation.
 
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Nobody was able to confirm the "fourth force" results, as I recall, and I think they were finally explained as a faulty analysis or experimental error.
 
shanu_bhaiya said:
We know that there are three fundamental forces:
1. Gravitational Force
2. Strong Nuclear Force
3. Quark-Quark Force (unified by Weak Nuclear and Electromagnetic Force)

I believe you are slightly confused. The interactions of the color field (quarks and gluons carry color- no other fundamental particle do). The weak force involves leptons and changes in the "flavor" of particles and the electromagnetc involves charged particles.
Gravitation of course deals with mass. Quarks carry both color charge and electric charge so they participate in all of these fundamental processes. Leptons (for instance electrons, muons, etc) do not carry color charge and there for do not interact through the strong nuclear force.

As far as the idea that Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation is incorrect, I would take it up with someone who knows a little more about General Relativity. GR is Eintsein's law for gravity which radically departed from our previous notions of gravity. This did not happen in 1986 though.

I hope I cleared up some information.
Cheers,
Ryan
 
Norman said:
As far as the idea that Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation is incorrect, I would take it up with someone who knows a little more about General Relativity. GR is Eintsein's law for gravity which radically departed from our previous notions of gravity. This did not happen in 1986 though.

At that time someone reported very precise measurements of gravitational force as a function of distance, that appeared to deviate from 1/r^2 proportionality. They suggested that the deviations might actually be a separate fundamental force. There was a lot of discussion about this "fifth force" for a while. More careful experiments didn't confirm this, and I think someone found possible sources of systematic error in the original experiment. This was almost twenty years ago, so my memory is vague.
 
shanu_bhaiya said:
We know that there are three fundamental forces:
1. Gravitational Force
2. Strong Nuclear Force
3. Quark-Quark Force (unified by Weak Nuclear and Electromagnetic Force)
I've heard about the fourth fundamental force which was found in 1986 and changed the relation:
F = G*m*M/R*R
to some another relation.
If you know about this force please briefly describe that here...and also that changed relation.

haven't they been able to combine the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces into one force?
 
ComputerGeek said:
haven't they been able to combine the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces into one force?
Nope. Lots of work being done in this area though. The standard model uses strong and electroweak but they are not unified in the theory.
Cheers,
Ryan
 
ComputerGeek said:
haven't they been able to combine the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces into one force?

They are trying and many of the Great Unifying Theories are being made in order to unify all the forces. TOE is 1 of the greatest...:rolleyes:
 
shanu_bhaiya said:
They are trying and many of the Great Unifying Theories are being made in order to unify all the forces. TOE is 1 of the greatest...:rolleyes:

I think you are confused. Grand Unified Theories or GUTs look to unify the strong force with the electroweak in the same way that electromagnetics and weak interactions were unified. Theory of Everything or TOE looks to unify all the fundamental forces (gravity, electroweak and strong). I believe that M-theory would be classified under an attempt at a TOE. But I am by no means an expert in Strings and their theories.

But their is a distinct difference in GUTs and TOEs- that being the inclusion or exclusion of gravity.

Cheers,
Ryan

Edit: I just realized I misread the post I am quoting: I have never heard of Great Unified Theory. I assumed this person simply meant Grand Unified Theory. But I may be wrong and if I am the post is still here to clear up any other misconceptions.
 
Last edited:
It is customary to speak of four forces (Gravity, EM, Weak, Strong) despite electro-weak unification. Thus, an additional force would be a fifth force.

There are a couple leading candidates out there for fifth forces. The strongest one is as a mechanism to explain what is commonly called "dark energy", i.e. a tendency of the expansion of the universe to accellerate. Another one is the notion that perhaps the phenomena known as "dark matter" is instead a fifth force. However, even among people who explore dark energy and dark matter phenomena as problems in the existing laws of nature rather than from a "missing stuff" hypothesis, the usual approach is to modify existing general relativity equations, rather than to create a truly independent fifth force.

Another approach to getting to a fifth force would be to describe the inertia effects of a Higgs field as a force.
 
  • #10
There is the Casimir effect. That could be a 5th force. It happens when two plates very close together disturb the vacuum energy and move together... or something.
 

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