Generalized free fields as dark matter?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential modeling of dark matter using generalized free fields, a concept from quantum field theory that lacks asymptotic free states. Participants explore the implications of this idea, referencing theoretical frameworks and existing literature while questioning the feasibility of such models in relation to dark matter and experimental validation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that generalized free fields could model dark matter, referencing the work of Ray Streater and the implications of the Källén-Lehmann weight function.
  • Others express skepticism about the validity of using generalized free fields to describe dark matter, questioning the speculative nature of the idea.
  • One participant notes the lack of a Lagrangian formulation for generalized free fields, suggesting that without a coupling to the standard model or general relativity, they cannot influence physical phenomena, including dark matter.
  • Another participant discusses their interest in constructing deformations of free field Wightman functions, indicating a focus on theoretical mathematics rather than direct applications to dark matter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the applicability of generalized free fields to dark matter, with some supporting the exploration of the idea while others challenge its feasibility and relevance to experimental data.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the theoretical framework surrounding generalized free fields, particularly their lack of a Lagrangian formulation and the challenges in coupling them to established physical theories.

Peter Morgan
Gold Member
Messages
316
Reaction score
135
@vanhees71 reminds us that
vanhees71 said:
The only interpretation of particles is in terms of asymptotic free states, and the observable predictions are in S-matrix elements.
which suggests something I've wondered about for a while, whether dark matter might be adequately modeled by generalized free fields, which do not have asymptotic free states. Ray Streater, in Rep. Prog. Phys. 1975 38 771-846, "Outline of axiomatic relativistic quantum field theory" has this account:

upload_2018-4-6_7-43-55.png

upload_2018-4-6_7-44-18.png


[I'd be pleased to know of a clear, more recent reference.]
The really pertinent phrase is "If the Källén-Lehmann weight function is continuous, there are no particles
associated with the corresponding generalized free field". Such a free field clearly exhibits different translation/mass properties than a free field that has a singular mass distribution, and yet as far as local properties of such a generalized free field are concerned, we can introduce a mass distribution that is as close to singular as we like, so that the local behavior, out to many light years, say, would be identical. Of course although we only compute the S-matrix between states at asymptotic separation, we in fact only measure the distribution of events in detectors in high energy experiments at separations up to a few meters (up to hundreds of kilometers for the outliers, neutrinos).
What studies are there of such a suggestion in the dark matter literature?
Is my understanding that unparticles have been suggested (but not successfully) as a model for dark energy correct?
 

Attachments

  • upload_2018-4-6_7-43-55.png
    upload_2018-4-6_7-43-55.png
    61.9 KB · Views: 645
  • upload_2018-4-6_7-44-18.png
    upload_2018-4-6_7-44-18.png
    43.5 KB · Views: 577
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
Why should generalized free fields describe dark matter? Speculating in the dark about the dark leads nowhere.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby and Peter Morgan
A. Neumaier said:
Why should generalized free fields describe dark matter? Speculating in the dark about the dark leads nowhere.
I believed I was asking whether anyone has considered whether this speculation might make contact with experiment at least far enough for it to be published. I'm also happy enough to think about the consequences of generalized free fields (and whatever deformations might be introduced thereof) purely as mathematics, which might or might not lead to some connection with local experimental data.
Thanks for your "Introduction to coherent spaces" paper and its pursuants, BTW. Nice math: I like the finite control it emphasizes instead of axiomatically insisting on infinite-dimensional representations of the Poincaré group as a starting point (of course I do: you'll find the same concern, but more implicitly, in the emphasis on manifest invariance under the Poincaré group instead of on representation in my arXiv:1709.06711).
 
Peter Morgan said:
consequences of generalized free fields (and whatever deformations might be introduced thereof) purely as mathematics
Generalized free fields have no Lagrangian formulation. Hence it is completely unclear how to couple them to the standard model or to general relativity. But coupled to nothing they cannot affect anything, hence cannot be dark matter.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Peter Morgan
A. Neumaier said:
Generalized free fields have no Lagrangian formulation. Hence it is completely unclear how to couple them to the standard model or to general relativity. But coupled to nothing they cannot affect anything, hence cannot be dark matter.
Right. I'm more engaged in constructing deformations of free field Wightman functions, possibly including generalized free fields, what Haag (page 61 of LQP, 2nd Ed.) more-or-less calls a "nonlinear program", for which, speaking loosely, I take Lagrangian methods to produce an asymptotic expansion. In a nonlinear program, coupling, not being presented as an asymptotic expansion, does not take the same form as in a Lagrangian approach. I'm trying to move in different circles, as it were. Whether I will produce anything interesting to anyone else before I die is a question, of course, but semper memento vivere.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 264 ·
9
Replies
264
Views
24K
  • · Replies 75 ·
3
Replies
75
Views
10K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K