News Government milking us like cows; Oil

[Art]

This discussion reminds me a little of a Monty Python sketch I saw years ago where a guy goes into a shop and asks for

"burger with ham and cheese please".
"we don't sell burgers"
"Oh, then I'll have just burger and cheese then"
"I said WE DON'T SELL BURGERS!"
"Well there's no need to shout, I'll just have a plain burger then please."

Discussions on alternative energy always seem to begin by assuming the car is sacrosanct and so any alternative must facilitate it's continuing use.

Why not consider real alternatives such as mass transit systems which can be far more efficient and environmentally friendly.

Just to give a couple of examples;

Given that (prior to the special tax on cars entering London) the average mph for journeys within that city were slower than when people traveled by horse and cart it would seem that a far wider adoptance of trams for example would benefit everybody whilst Britain's canal network which was once highly extensive is a great way to move bulk loads between cities whilst creating next to no pollution.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Britain's canal network which was once highly extensive is a great way to move bulk loads between cities whilst creating next to no pollution.

In China, I still see them using the Canal system. I see the barges on the main canal here and they are lined up like a superhighway in the sates carrying eveything from sand, cement, gravel and coal to cardboard for recycling.

 

[pattylou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russ_watters
Hydrogen is the only one with even a chance, and it isn't ready yet.

isn't hydrogen available in Germany? Refueling stations and the whole bit?

Hey Russ,

I sometimes leave questions for you that I think you are knowledgeable about and can answer ... and often you don't seem to realize my questions are not rhetorical (you don't respond.)

Do you know if Germany has production of hydrogen cars, and refueling stations, and so on?

thanks in advance,
Patty

 

[Pengwuino]

Do you know if Germany has production of hydrogen cars, and refueling stations, and so on?

Don't use me as a source... but i THINK one of the german automobile companies has a test setup of hydrogen refueling stations and vehicles. I vaguely remember something a while back about that (but then again maybe it was a commercial, who knows)

 

[Art]

Hey Russ,
I sometimes leave questions for you that I think you are knowledgeable about and can answer ... and often you don't seem to realize my questions are not rhetorical (you don't respond.)
Do you know if Germany has production of hydrogen cars, and refueling stations, and so on?
thanks in advance,
Patty

Here's a reference for you Patty.

Germany | 13.11.2004
Fill It Up With Hydrogen

Drivers in Berlin can fill up their cars with hydrogen at the world's largest service station for fuel cell vehicles. Opened on Friday, the project paves the way for widespread use of alternative energy.

In what was probably the most high-profile turn-out for a service station opening, some 100 managers from four international carmakers, energy experts, environmentalists and a minister for transportation all convened at a Berlin service station to watch the first fleet of fuel cell-driven cars fill their tanks with hydrogen.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1396039,00.html

 

[GENIERE]

Here's a reference for you Patty.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1396039,00.html

Art and Pattylou -

Please tell us what energy source they are using to generate the hydrogen.

 

[Art]

Art and Pattylou -
Please tell us what energy source they are using to generate the hydrogen.

steam methane reforming

 

[GENIERE]

That is a process. Please Answer the question?

 

[The Smoking Man]

That is a process. Please Answer the question?

Could be fired by Metane doncha think? I just KNOW you are trying to get them to say electrolysis and then jump on them, right?

 

[pattylou]

Here's a reference for you Patty.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1396039,00.html

Thank you Art.

This raises the question of how soon we could switch, or at least introduce hydrogen cells here.

Is it, then, correct to say that hydrogen "isn't ready yet," as Russ posited earlier on the thread?

In other words, could we switch over at least partially, in the US, in the short term? And if not, why not? Energy independence seems like something every American, regardless of political position, could get behind.

Don't you agree? And wouldn't it be nice if we could all unite behind something again?

 

[pattylou]

Art and Pattylou -
Please tell us what energy source they are using to generate the hydrogen.

I don't know. Do you? I'd love to know how they are making it work, and whether it is more efficient and cleaner than petrol.

Thanks Geniere, I appreiciate your time on this.

 

[Art]

That is a process. Please Answer the question?

Ah, your request for information was purely rhetorical. You should have said so and I wouldn't have bothered replying.

Patty asked for a reference and I found one for her. I am not endorsing LH2 as an alternative to gasoline. In fact if you had read my earlier post you would have seen this.

 

[Art]

Thank you Art.
This raises the question of how soon we could switch, or at least introduce hydrogen cells here.
Is it, then, correct to say that hydrogen "isn't ready yet," as Russ posited earlier on the thread?
In other words, could we switch over at least partially, in the US, in the short term? And if not, why not? Energy independence seems like something every American, regardless of political position, could get behind.
Don't you agree?

The main problems with hydrogen Patty are;
due to it's low density even in liquid form it takes ~4 times the volume of gasoline to produce the same energy (thus a huge fuel tank).
It requires insulation (extra bulk and weight).
It leaks and so is difficult to transport.
Although it can be produced quite cheaply using the process I listed as the base material is currently cheap if demand rose substantially so would it's cost.

There are other alternatives to hydrogen which some people claim are superior. I've heard Boron touted but I don't know any details about how it works. I guess it's all at the VHS vs Betamex stage at the moment so although BMW are producing production models that run on hydrogen (and so in answer to your question hydrogen is ready) it is not yet certain that this will become the future standard.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I don't know. Do you? I'd love to know how they are making it work, and whether it is more efficient and cleaner than petrol.
Thanks Geniere, I appreiciate your time on this.

Using hydrogen itself as a fuel source results in the production of H2O from the combustion process.

Now it can be argued that if you use electrolysis to create the hydrogen you may be burning oil or coal to produce the hydrogen and thus defeating the purpose.

Thre are other sources of power however such as wind and solar not to mention nuclear (nucular for you Bush supporters) which are relatively clean.

If they could do electrolysis to produce hydrogen using wind power, this would be absolute poetry.

The only 'pollution' would thus be thermal.

 

[Art]

Could be fired by Metane doncha think? I just KNOW you are trying to get them to say electrolysis and then jump on them, right?

lol I think they call it entrapment. However if that was what he was looking for he'll be disappointed as apart from the process I mentioned there is also a thermochemical process for splitting water that is claimed to be twice as efficient as electrolysis called the sulfur-iodine cycle and I believe there is some way of producing hydrogen direct from a nuclear reactor.

 

[Pengwuino]

This raises the question of how soon we could switch, or at least introduce hydrogen cells here.
Is it, then, correct to say that hydrogen "isn't ready yet," as Russ posited earlier on the thread?
In other words, could we switch over at least partially, in the US, in the short term? And if not, why not?

It's going to take a while because it's not ready. The difference between the US and European nations is that whatever gets introduced into the US must be able to handle the driving habbits of an American driver. Because of our size, we drive very large distances even in cities! Some cities in the US seem to just go on and on and on and on and on.

Thus, we need a large "gas tank". The problem here, as mentioned, is that in the gaseous form, its a bit dangerous and means we can only go short distances without needing to be refilled because of how low a density gas has compared to solids and liquids. Research is currently going into solid H2 cells that will make the idea more feasible.

Plus fo course, we need to figure out how we are going to produce the hydrogen. An odd problem is that wind and solar are great for wide open spaces (solar more so actually)... but hydrogen power's main problem in the US is the fact that we have wide open spaces. Plus there are only certain areas in the US suited for solar and wind and there are many places in the US where both are absolutely infeasible. So really... in a lot of the US, you can't put up renewable energy sources for hydrogen and anything other then renewable sources is stupid if you're polluting to make the hydrogen in the first place. Nuclear power is probably one of the only things that can tie up these loose ends but the anti-nuclear left wing lobby has nearly put the nail in the nuclear industry coffin.

 

[Townsend]

Using hydrogen itself as a fuel source results in the production of H2O from the combustion process.

If this was a video game forum I could understand the need to post that but around here it's trivial at best.

Now it can be argued that if you use electrolysis to create the hydrogen you may be burning oil or coal to produce the hydrogen and thus defeating the purpose.

Now if you take out the 'be' and replace the word 'can' with 'is', then you would be more correct.

Thre are other sources of power however such as wind and solar not to mention nuclear (nucular for you Bush supporters) which are relatively clean.

If they could do electrolysis to produce hydrogen using wind power, this would be absolute poetry.

The only 'pollution' would thus be thermal.

There are problems with wind, nuclear, and solar energy sources. I would encourage you to research the problems and draw your own conclusions.

I think the worlds best hope is being built in France. In the mean time, I think that fuel should be taxed up to a cost of about 4.00 a gallon. People are too wasteful and need the incentive to cut their fuel consumption.

 

[GENIERE]

Could be fired by Metane doncha think? I just KNOW you are trying to get them to say electrolysis and then jump on them, right?

Not at all, I am simply stating that a source of energy must be used to generate the hydrogen. As you stated they are burning the fossil fuel `methane'. They are investigating many processes to reduce the CO2 emissions from methane as well as coal and oil. They are also studying the use of nuclear power, a power source that could be used for `electrolysis’ with minimal environmental impact.

See Ivan's posts in the sub-forums. I'm sure you will that it was a painful for him to alter his view of the use of nuclear power.

As I stated in other posts, there is no shortage of fossil fuels when the price is right. No one wants to pollute the atmosphere. Nuclear power is the least evil of the evils.


...

 

[loseyourname]

isn't hydrogen available in Germany? Refueling stations and the whole bit?

Hydrogen cars and refueling stations exist in Los Angeles. No need to look to Germany.

 

[Pengwuino]

In the mean time, I think that fuel should be taxed up to a cost of about 4.00 a gallon. People are too wasteful and need the incentive to cut their fuel consumption.

You do realize that would criple the economy right? Trucking doesn't happen with rockets.

 

[Pengwuino]

Hydrogen cars and refueling stations exist in Los Angeles. No need to look to Germany.

What are the details of hte hydrogen generation?

 

[Townsend]

You do realize that would criple the economy right? Trucking doesn't happen with rockets.

I guess I should specify that I wouldn't tax diesel fuel as much since it is much more efficient than gasoline.

At first, it would be hard for to people to get used to driving smaller more efficient vehicles but they would get use to it and the economy would bounce back.

 

[Art]

Not at all, I am simply stating that a source of energy must be used to generate the hydrogen. As you stated they are burning the fossil fuel `methane'.
...

A small correction, they don't burn the methane (or at least they don't have to) the process uses a heater but it really doesn't matter to the process what energy source is used to fuel that.

 

[loseyourname]

What are the details of hte hydrogen generation?

I think it depends on who is running the station. The first one was opened in July of 2001 by Honda and uses solar power to generate the hydrogen.

 

[Pengwuino]

The first one was opened in July of 2001 by Honda and uses solar power to generate the hydrogen.

Oh god that must suck

 

[The Smoking Man]

A small correction, they don't burn the methane (or at least they don't have to) the process uses a heater but it really doesn't matter to the process what energy source is used to fuel that.

That was what I was getting at. If Methane is available for the process, then it is also available as the fuel source.

 

[loseyourname]

Oh god that must suck

Here's a little bit from a report on it that I found online:

In July 2001, Honda R&D Company, Ltd. and U.S.-based Honda R&D Americas, Inc. opened its first solar powered hydrogen production and fueling station. The station uses an array of photovoltaic (PV) cells to extract hydrogen from water via electrolysis. When power from the PV array is unavailable or insufficient (e.g., due to cloud cover, etc.), electricity from the grid is used for the electrolysis process. The station is shown in Figure 1. The only other similar facility in the United States that uses solar energy to produce hydrogen for FCVs is the facility at SunLine Transit Agency in Thousand Palms, CA, where hydrogen is generated for fuel cell-powered city buses and small urban vehicles such as golf carts.

http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/honda.pdf

So apparently they take power from the grid when their photovoltaic cells don't do the trick. I'm not sure what the source of electricity is on the grid in Torrance, but I would imagine it's either nuclear power from the generators at San Onofre or hydroelectric.

For patty, since you live in the area, the address is:

1900 Harpers Way
Torrance, CA 90501

There have been others built since then, and there are a limited amount of hydrogen-powered vehicles in use on the streets. I did see them every now and then driving through the city back when I was still going to LACC, and you'll see signs for the refueling stations on the highways.

 

[pattylou]

The main problems with hydrogen Patty are;
due to it's low density even in liquid form it takes ~4 times the volume of gasoline to produce the same energy (thus a huge fuel tank).
It requires insulation (extra bulk and weight).
It leaks and so is difficult to transport.
Although it can be produced quite cheaply using the process I listed as the base material is currently cheap if demand rose substantially so would it's cost.
There are other alternatives to hydrogen which some people claim are superior. I've heard Boron touted but I don't know any details about how it works. I guess it's all at the VHS vs Betamex stage at the moment so although BMW are producing production models that run on hydrogen (and so in answer to your question hydrogen is ready) it is not yet certain that this will become the future standard.

Hmmm. Thank you. I appreciate your time on this, and you have given me good food for thought.

 

[pattylou]

Hydrogen cars and refueling stations exist in Los Angeles. No need to look to Germany.

Wow! Thank you.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oh god that must suck

Always nice to hear encouragement for progress.

I suppose you were against Henry Ford and his automobile too until the world revealed The Mustang.

You must be a treat in Brainstorming sessions.

(Hey ... got to keep Evo on her toes, right? And yeah, I read what you wrote about me in the poll site you big Teddybear:!) )