News Government milking us like cows; Oil

[Pengwuino]

Hydrogen cars and refueling stations exist in Los Angeles. No need to look to Germany.

What are the details of hte hydrogen generation?

 

[Townsend]

You do realize that would criple the economy right? Trucking doesn't happen with rockets.

I guess I should specify that I wouldn't tax diesel fuel as much since it is much more efficient than gasoline.

At first, it would be hard for to people to get used to driving smaller more efficient vehicles but they would get use to it and the economy would bounce back.

 

[Art]

Not at all, I am simply stating that a source of energy must be used to generate the hydrogen. As you stated they are burning the fossil fuel `methane'.
...

A small correction, they don't burn the methane (or at least they don't have to) the process uses a heater but it really doesn't matter to the process what energy source is used to fuel that.

 

[loseyourname]

What are the details of hte hydrogen generation?

I think it depends on who is running the station. The first one was opened in July of 2001 by Honda and uses solar power to generate the hydrogen.

 

[Pengwuino]

The first one was opened in July of 2001 by Honda and uses solar power to generate the hydrogen.

Oh god that must suck

 

[The Smoking Man]

A small correction, they don't burn the methane (or at least they don't have to) the process uses a heater but it really doesn't matter to the process what energy source is used to fuel that.

That was what I was getting at. If Methane is available for the process, then it is also available as the fuel source.

 

[loseyourname]

Oh god that must suck

Here's a little bit from a report on it that I found online:

In July 2001, Honda R&D Company, Ltd. and U.S.-based Honda R&D Americas, Inc. opened its first solar powered hydrogen production and fueling station. The station uses an array of photovoltaic (PV) cells to extract hydrogen from water via electrolysis. When power from the PV array is unavailable or insufficient (e.g., due to cloud cover, etc.), electricity from the grid is used for the electrolysis process. The station is shown in Figure 1. The only other similar facility in the United States that uses solar energy to produce hydrogen for FCVs is the facility at SunLine Transit Agency in Thousand Palms, CA, where hydrogen is generated for fuel cell-powered city buses and small urban vehicles such as golf carts.

http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/honda.pdf

So apparently they take power from the grid when their photovoltaic cells don't do the trick. I'm not sure what the source of electricity is on the grid in Torrance, but I would imagine it's either nuclear power from the generators at San Onofre or hydroelectric.

For patty, since you live in the area, the address is:

1900 Harpers Way
Torrance, CA 90501

There have been others built since then, and there are a limited amount of hydrogen-powered vehicles in use on the streets. I did see them every now and then driving through the city back when I was still going to LACC, and you'll see signs for the refueling stations on the highways.

 

[pattylou]

The main problems with hydrogen Patty are;
due to it's low density even in liquid form it takes ~4 times the volume of gasoline to produce the same energy (thus a huge fuel tank).
It requires insulation (extra bulk and weight).
It leaks and so is difficult to transport.
Although it can be produced quite cheaply using the process I listed as the base material is currently cheap if demand rose substantially so would it's cost.
There are other alternatives to hydrogen which some people claim are superior. I've heard Boron touted but I don't know any details about how it works. I guess it's all at the VHS vs Betamex stage at the moment so although BMW are producing production models that run on hydrogen (and so in answer to your question hydrogen is ready) it is not yet certain that this will become the future standard.

Hmmm. Thank you. I appreciate your time on this, and you have given me good food for thought.

 

[pattylou]

Hydrogen cars and refueling stations exist in Los Angeles. No need to look to Germany.

Wow! Thank you.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oh god that must suck

Always nice to hear encouragement for progress.

I suppose you were against Henry Ford and his automobile too until the world revealed The Mustang.

You must be a treat in Brainstorming sessions.

(Hey ... got to keep Evo on her toes, right? And yeah, I read what you wrote about me in the poll site you big Teddybear:!) )

 

[GENIERE]

That was what I was getting at. If Methane is available for the process, then it is also available as the fuel source.

THIS is the steam reformation process:

(CH4 + 2 H2O >>> 4 H2 + CO2).

Note that the process releases hydrogen and CO2.

CO2 is a gas that contributes to global warming.

Do you want to continue using a process, any process that generates greenhouse gasses?

Methane is a greenhouse gas.

 

[The Smoking Man]

THIS is the steam reformation process:
(CH4 + 2 H2O >>> 4 H2 + CO2).
Note that the process releases hydrogen and CO2.
CO2 is a gas that contributes to global warming.
Do you want to continue using a process, any process that generates greenhouse gasses?
Methane is a greenhouse gas.

Hey I agree ... I'm an advocate of alternate fuel source electrolysis myself.

We may be unable to run on water directly however generating electricity from falling water to split water into it's elements merely produces O2 don't you agree?

Now it can be argued to the minute detail that oil must still be used to lubricate the process too but let's work it through one step at a time.

We have a goal and we must make steps in achieving that goal ... there will be transitionary steps. After all, we didn't immediately go from the wheel to a set of Goodyear all season radial in one step.

But thanks for keeping us on our toes.

Many people forget about the production of the fuel source itself. It always helps to keep people informed and working on the problem.

 

[Skyhunter]

The solution is reduction in energy use in conjunction with renewable clean sources of energy.

I agree with Townsend tax fuel and promote conservation. I would phase in the tax, and and raise registration fees for inefficient vehicles. It should be done in phases so that people and industry would have time to adapt. Hybrids are an excellent bridge between technologies. Few people keep their everyday cars for more than 10 years, so when FC or whatever vehicles become available, the poor will be able to buy more efficient used vehicles.

Redesign our cities and the surrounding areas to reduce the need for driving and the transporting of goods over long distances. Build more green sources of energy. Solar combined with conservation and more efficient technology will go a long way. If we reduce consumption we won't need nuclear power.

The American way of life is going to change radically in the next 50-100 years. We might as well start now so as not to leave future generations with a crisis of astronomical proportions.

 

[GENIERE]

...The American way of life is going to change radically in the next 50-100 years. We might as well start now so as not to leave future generations with a crisis of astronomical proportions.

If you assume the American way of life will change, you must also consider the effect of a lack of energy resources to the global population. The lack of energy will sentence billions of people to death, slowly and horribly.

 

[Townsend]

If you assume the American way of life will change, you must also consider the effect of a lack of energy resources to the global population. The lack of energy will sentence billions of people to death, slowly and horribly.

...this is just another reason I will never have kids.

 

[Skyhunter]

If you assume the American way of life will change, you must also consider the effect of a lack of energy resources to the global population. The lack of energy will sentence billions of people to death, slowly and horribly.

I have. That is why I advocate that we begin now to address the problem before it becomes a disaster of epic scale. I am greatly concerned for the survival of modern society, if we do not alter our current consumption practices.

 

[Skyhunter]

...this is just another reason I will never have kids.

But, your kid may contribute to the solution. Especially if given the nurturing and support of a good mother and father.

 

[Townsend]

But, your kid may contribute to the solution. Especially if given the nurturing and support of a good mother and father.

There are other reasons why I don't want to have kids. Those reasons may change in the future and I always have the option open to me if I ever think the time is right.

 

[Pengwuino]

But, your kid may contribute to the solution. Especially if given the nurturing and support of a good mother and father.

Don't listen to that BS

parenthood. Its a trick.

 

[edward]

Does anyone have a link on how much energy is consumed to produce a gallon of gasoline? I think it would be quite high. If the crude is pumped in Saudi Arabia then transported to a U.S. refinery, then pumped through pipe lines to tank farms, then trucked to your local gas station where the final bit of energy is used to pump it into your tank.

Refineries use electricity, most probably generated by fossil fuels, even coal. The coal has to be mined and shipped to the power plant. All of the stages of transportation and processing use fossil fuels.
Gees no wonder we have pollution.

 

[GENIERE]

I am greatly concerned for the survival of modern society, if we do not alter our current consumption practices.

The former depends on the later; you need to increase the scope of your analysis.

 

[GENIERE]

QUOTE=edward]Does anyone have a link on how much energy is consumed to produce a gallon of gasoline? I think it would be quite high. If the crude is pumped in Saudi Arabia then transported to a U.S. refinery, then pumped through pipe lines to tank farms, then trucked to your local gas station where the final bit of energy is used to pump it into your tank.
Refineries use electricity, most probably generated by fossil fuels, even coal. The coal has to be mined and shipped to the power plant. All of the stages of transportation and processing use fossil fuels.
Gees no wonder we have pollution.[/QUOTE]


I believe about 10% of the crude is required to obtain the gasoline distillate. Heating oil and diesel fuel require less. The later are more efficiently made but produce more particular pollutants when used. I don’t know about the losses incurred in transport, maybe Mercator will comment.

The efficiencies of producing alcohol from grain or biomass may, at least according to some researchers, be negative. Proponents may say otherwise. I don’t know enough to comment. It is a lot less efficient than gasoline production but may have other benefits to consider.

Every direction I’ve explored has always lead me to the nuclear option.

 

[Skyhunter]

The former depends on the later; you need to increase the scope of your analysis.

We are getting off topic.

I should have said enlightened society. Modern society is infected with consumerism, but it has many institutions that aid individuals on their path to enlightenment. I would like to see more enlightenment and less consumerism.

 

[Mercator]

I don't think there are any alternatives that are viable. That's why I asked: What is the alternative? It wasn't a rhetorical question, I am really asking you what you think the alternatives are.
You mentioned "solar and electric" - well solar is electric, but if you mean direct solar power and battery power, do you understand that neither is currently capable of coming anywhere close to the performance of gas/diesel powered cars? And at the same time as they give you much, much less performance, they also cost much, much more.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "government milking us" - are you talking about gas taxes?

Solar is not electric. I have a solar powered water heating machine on the roof, which consists of a tank and plastic, coated tubes. It's common in the Chinese countryside and it's one of the reasons why China consumes but a fraction of Amercian energy consumption and Chinese still look clean.

 

[Mercator]

We are getting off topic.
I should have said enlightened society. Modern society is infected with consumerism, but it has many institutions that aid individuals on their path to enlightenment. I would like to see more enlightenment and less consumerism.

How many Watts of enlightment?

 

[Mercator]

QUOTE=edward]Does anyone have a link on how much energy is consumed to produce a gallon of gasoline? I think it would be quite high. If the crude is pumped in Saudi Arabia then transported to a U.S. refinery, then pumped through pipe lines to tank farms, then trucked to your local gas station where the final bit of energy is used to pump it into your tank.
Refineries use electricity, most probably generated by fossil fuels, even coal. The coal has to be mined and shipped to the power plant. All of the stages of transportation and processing use fossil fuels.
Gees no wonder we have pollution.[ /QUOTE]

I believe about 10% of the crude is required to obtain the gasoline distillate. Heating oil and diesel fuel require less. The later are more efficiently made but produce more particular pollutants when used. I don’t know about the losses incurred in transport, maybe Mercator will comment.
The efficiencies of producing alcohol from grain or biomass may, at least according to some researchers, be negative. Proponents may say otherwise. I don’t know enough to comment. It is a lot less efficient than gasoline production but may have other benefits to consider.
Every direction I’ve explored has always lead me to the nuclear option.

Depends on location and sofort, but average 10 % of the potential energy from a crude is indeed wasted to produce fuels. Biofuels may help us a bit but are no long term solution. All of us should have read "Visions" of our beloved Dr. Kaku. To be able to survive as a species we have to go to a next level of energy which is indeed only achievable the nuclear way. Fuse me baby!
The evaporation losses and related emmissions during production, transport and storage of hydrocarbons are a bigger factor in total emmisions than these coming from combustion in vehicles. With other word, refineries are worse than the cars they feed.
Let me say it again: let's keep oil to produce invaluable chemicals and not burn it. Do it the Belgian way and produce 90% of your energy by nuclear power. Fission as long as fusion is not commercially available.

 

[Mercator]

QUOTE=edward]Does anyone have a link on how much energy is consumed to produce a gallon of gasoline? I think it would be quite high. If the crude is pumped in Saudi Arabia then transported to a U.S. refinery, then pumped through pipe lines to tank farms, then trucked to your local gas station where the final bit of energy is used to pump it into your tank.
Refineries use electricity, most probably generated by fossil fuels, even coal. The coal has to be mined and shipped to the power plant. All of the stages of transportation and processing use fossil fuels.
Gees no wonder we have pollution.

I believe about 10% of the crude is required to obtain the gasoline distillate. Heating oil and diesel fuel require less. The later are more efficiently made but produce more particular pollutants when used. I don’t know about the losses incurred in transport, maybe Mercator will comment.
The efficiencies of producing alcohol from grain or biomass may, at least according to some researchers, be negative. Proponents may say otherwise. I don’t know enough to comment. It is a lot less efficient than gasoline production but may have other benefits to consider.
Every direction I’ve explored has always lead me to the nuclear option.[/QUOTE]
Depends on location and sofort, but average 10 % of the potential energy from a crude is indeed wasted to produce fuels. Biofuels may help us a bit but are no long term solution. All of us should have read "Visions" of our beloved Dr. Kaku. To be able to survive as a species we have to go to a next level of energy which is indeed only achievable the nuclear way. Fuse me baby!
The evaporation losses and related emmissions during production, transport and storage of hydrocarbons are a bigger factor in total emmisions than these coming from combustion in vehicles. With other word, refineries are worse than the cars they feed.
Let me say it again: let's keep oil to produce invaluable chemicals and not burn it. Do it the Belgian way and produce 90% of your energy by nuclear power. Fission as long as fusion is not commercially available.

 

[Mercator]

I guess I should specify that I wouldn't tax diesel fuel as much since it is much more efficient than gasoline.
At first, it would be hard for to people to get used to driving smaller more efficient vehicles but they would get use to it and the economy would bounce back.

Agree on the efficiency of vehicles, but a refinery with a certain crude oil can only tune it's yield of diesel, gasoline and other fractions to a limited extend. It is not possible to turn crude oil in 100% diesel fuel. So the tax issue should perhaps be brought to the refinery level, to get them to optimize yields for environmental efficiency, in stead of putting it on the consumer.

 

[Curious3141]

I'm sorry, I haven't scoured the thread yet, but has anyone mentioned biodiesel ? That, IMHO, is the most viable short term alternative to petrol. As good as diesel (and many passenger cars run excellent diesel engines today), completely renewable and gentler on the environment.

 

[dgoodpasture2005]

i personally don't like the sound of anything that is "gentler" on the environment. I'd rather see something that is completely nonharmful to the environment ... making things that are gentler are going to get us stuck where we are today, just 100 years from now. Think ahead.