Homework: 13s: Critical Thinking Challenge

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter karush
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a homework problem involving transformations represented by matrices. Participants explore the application of these transformations, particularly focusing on the operations of two transformations, S and T, and their compositions. The conversation includes technical reasoning, mathematical expressions, and clarifications regarding the steps involved in the transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concerns about the legality of adding matrices of different dimensions, specifically a 2x1 matrix with a 3x1 matrix.
  • There is a step-by-step exploration of the transformation S applied to a vector, leading to a derived expression for S^2.
  • Participants discuss the transformation S and its effect on variables x and y, with one participant providing a detailed breakdown of the transformation process.
  • Another participant suggests a further transformation involving T after applying S, prompting a discussion on the simplification of the resulting expression.
  • There are multiple confirmations and corrections regarding the application of transformations, particularly focusing on the handling of negative signs and the order of operations.
  • One participant raises a question about the order of applying transformations S and T, indicating a potential misunderstanding about whether they are to be treated as a product or a composite function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally engage in a collaborative exploration of the problem, with some disagreements regarding the legality of certain matrix operations and the interpretation of the transformations. There is no clear consensus on the correct approach to the problem, as participants offer differing views and corrections.

Contextual Notes

Some mathematical steps remain unresolved, particularly in the simplification of expressions involving transformations. Participants also express uncertainty about the proper order of applying transformations, which may affect the final results.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and individuals interested in linear transformations, matrix operations, and those seeking clarification on the application of mathematical concepts in homework problems.

karush
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5
View attachment 8848

ok just sent this homework in (maybe typos} :cool:
on TS i think this is as far you can go with the current dimensions

critical thinking accepted...:cool:
 
Physics news on Phys.org
karush said:
ok just sent this homework in (maybe typos} :cool:
on TS i think this is as far you can go with the current dimensions

critical thinking accepted...:cool:
The first two are right, though I'm really not fond of your text trying to add a 2x1 matrix with a 3x1 in the second one. That's rather illegal, but not your problem.

As for [math]S^3[/math], take it step by step.
[math]S \left [ \begin{matrix} x \\ y \end{matrix} \right ] = \left [ \begin{matrix} x - 2y \\ 3x - y \end{matrix}\right ] [/math]

[math]S^2 \left [ \begin{matrix} x \\ y \end{matrix} \right ] = S \left ( S \left [ \begin{matrix} x \\ y \end{matrix} \right ] \right )[/math]

[math] = S \left [ \begin{matrix} x - 2y \\ 3x - y \end{matrix} \right ] = \left [ \begin{matrix} (x - 2y) - 2(3x - y) \\ 3(x - 2y) - (3x -y) \end{matrix} \right ] = \left [ \begin{matrix} -5x \\ -5y \end{matrix} \right ] [/math]

Now you finish the rest.

-Dan
 
karush said:
$\displaystyle = S \left [ \begin{matrix} x - 2y \\ 3x - y \end{matrix} \right ] = \left [ \begin{matrix} (x - 2y) - 2(3x - y) \\ 3(x - 2y) - (3x -y) \end{matrix} \right ] = \left [ \begin{matrix} -5x \\ -5y \end{matrix} \right ]$so then kinda maybe
$S\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x \\ -5y \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} -5(x-2y) \\ -5(3x-y) \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x-10y \\ -15x-5y \end{matrix} \right ]$
The transformation S takes a value [math]x \to x - 2y[/math] and [math]y \to 3x - y[/math], so your new x value will be (-5x) - 2(-5y) and your new y value will be 3(-5x) - (-5y).

-Dan
 
so you mean this
$S\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x \\ -5y \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} (-5x) - 2(-5y) \\ 3(-5x) - (-5y) \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x-10y \\ -15x-5y \end{matrix} \right ]$
 
so for ST if
$S\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x \\ y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}x-2y \\ 3x-y \end{array}\right], \quad
T\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x \\ y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}x+y \\ x-y\\2x+3y \end{array}\right]$

then

$S\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x-2y \\ 3x-y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}(x-2y)+(3x-y) \\ (x-2y)-(3x-y)\\2(x-2y)+3(3x-y) \end{array}\right]$
if ok then simplify..
 
Last edited:
karush said:
so you mean this
$S\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x \\ -5y \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} (-5x) - 2(-5y) \\ 3(-5x) - (-5y) \end{matrix} \right ]
=\left [ \begin{matrix} -5x-10y \\ -15x-5y \end{matrix} \right ]$
Watch the double negatives!

-Dan

- - - Updated - - -

karush said:
so for ST if
$S\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x \\ y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}x-2y \\ 3x-y \end{array}\right], \quad
T\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x \\ y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}x+y \\ x-y\\2x+3y \end{array}\right]$

then

$S\left(\left[\begin{array}{c}x-2y \\ 3x-y \end{array}\right]\right)
=\left[\begin{array}{c}(x-2y)+(3x-y) \\ (x-2y)-(3x-y)\\2(x-2y)+3(3x-y) \end{array}\right]$
if ok then simplify..
I think you mean
[math]T \left ( \left [ \begin{array}{c}x-2y \\ 3x-y \end{array} \right ] \right ) [/math]
in that last line. Otherwise, yes, good!

-Dan
 
A random thought. When you were doing the TS part you do realize you do S and then T, right?

-Dan
 
topsquark said:
A random thought. When you were doing the TS part you do realize you do S and then T, right?

-Dan
Yeah I thot it was a product
Not a composite
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
913
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K