How are they differentiating this ODE?

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    Differentiating Ode
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiation of a given ordinary differential equation (ODE) represented as x' = f_a(x) = ax(1-x). Participants are examining the implications of differentiating with respect to a function rather than a point on the real line, particularly in the context of determining equilibrium points and their stability.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how differentiation is performed with respect to x, which is treated as a function rather than a real number.
  • Another participant suggests that the notation may be inconsistent and proposes that x' could be interpreted as dx/dt, allowing for differentiation with respect to space.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that the usual derivative requires the domain to be a subset of \mathbb{R}^n, raising concerns about the validity of differentiating a function in this context.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of differentiating f with respect to x, noting that it leads to confusion regarding the assumptions about the domain of x.
  • One participant expresses realization of their misunderstanding after engaging with the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the appropriateness of differentiating with respect to x as a function. There is no consensus on the correct interpretation of the notation or the implications for the differential equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the notation and assumptions regarding the domain of x, which may affect the validity of the differentiation process discussed.

JG89
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They give a differential equation: x' = f_a(x) = ax(1-x). In determining if the equilibrium points are sources or sinks, they say: We may also determine this information analytically. We have f'_a(x) = a - 2ax

How can they differentiate with respect to x? x is a function, it doesn't represent a point on the real line. I tried assuming that they really mean x'(t) = f_a(x(t)) = ax(t)(1 - x(t)), but that would mean that x''(t) = f'_a(x(t)) = ax'(t) - 2ax(t)x'(t), which according to the book is wrong.

What's going on here?
 
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Differentiating with respect to a function is not a problem.

1st pass - mistake in notation?
Well x'=1 if we take the primed notation to indicate differentiation in x. Perhaps that's supposed to be a dot? Then I can put v = x' = dx/dt right?

That would mean that v = ax(1 - x) and and you can certainly differentiate speed with respect to space to give: dv/dx = a - 2ax

Of course this means that the notation is inconsistent.
I think it's pretty clear that they are differentiating f with respect to x. For the first it's not so clear from the example what is intended ... I mean where they came from is something like x=(0.5)ax²(1-x)-ax+c ... which is only true for at most three values of x. So there is something missing from the description here.

2nd pass: your analysis holds but recalling that x'=dx(t)/dx=1 then x''=0 and your equation simplifies to:

0 = f'(x(t)) = a - 2ax(t)

... isn't that what they have?

3rd pass ... If the prime implies d/dt (JIC) always then ...

f = ax - ax² = x'
f' = ax' -2ax.x' = af -2axf = ax(1-x-2x²) (check - not what they have)

I think we need context but it really looks like they have differentiated f wrt x not t.
 
Last edited:
I know they're differentiating with respect to x, that's exactly what I have a problem with. As far as I know, the usual derivative of a map requires the domain to be a subset of \mathbb{R}^n, but the x that they are differentiating with respect to is a function, it's not a real number, or an n-tuple of real numbers. Shouldn't x in \mathbb{R}^n if we're differentiating with respect to x?
 
So you are telling me that x is not in \mathbb{R}^n?
What is it's domain then? You could, in principle, plot a graph of x vs t right?

Are you saying that if y=f(x(t)) you can't do dy/dx?
 
Wow, now I feel silly. I confused the hell outta myself, I should've known better. Thanks for the replies.
 
No worries - you've been thinking too hard go have a drink.
 

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