How Can We Best Understand a System?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding systems from a holistic perspective rather than focusing solely on their individual components. Participants explore the implications of studying system properties versus underlying processes, particularly in the context of complex systems and emergent behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that understanding a system requires reasoning at the system level, using the analogy of baking a cake to illustrate the importance of system properties like texture and color over chemical properties.
  • Another participant identifies the discussion as related to 'emergent behavior in complex systems', implying a connection to broader concepts in system theory.
  • A different participant expresses skepticism about the term 'emergent behavior', suggesting it is often used to indicate a lack of understanding rather than a concrete explanation.
  • One participant raises the challenge of reverse engineering systems, noting that different systems can produce the same outcomes, complicating the understanding of their underlying processes.
  • Several participants inquire about rigorous mathematical definitions and resources for studying emergent behavior, seeking recommendations for textbooks or courses that provide a structured approach to the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the effectiveness of studying underlying processes versus system properties, with no consensus reached on the best approach to understanding systems or the utility of the term 'emergent behavior'.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions highlight the difficulty in linking system properties to underlying processes causally, and the potential limitations of reverse engineering systems. There is also an acknowledgment of varying levels of familiarity with the topic among participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring concepts in systems theory, complex systems, and emergent behavior, as well as those seeking academic resources on these topics.

query_ious
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Hi,

I was wondering if this makes sense and would appreciate pointers to relevant topics...

Basic idea is that if you want to understand a system you need to 'reason' on the level of the system and not on the level of its parts.

Analogy (borrowed from Tania Lombrozo from here) is that of baking a cake - when you bake a cake you care about 'system properties' like texture, color, smell, shape and so on and not various chemical properties of the underlying materials.

The problem is that texture, color, etc. are defined in completely different terms from various chemical properties+processes and these terms are very difficult (maybe impossible) to link causally. So, if what interests us is making the best cake does it even make sense to study the 'underlying basics' or should we study what actually interests us?

A slightly more refined version - when does studying the underlying processes stop yielding any interesting information from a 'systems viewpoint'?

Or is this all just hopelessly confused?

Thanks :)
 
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Sounds like a convoluted version of 'emergent behavior in complex systems'.
 
I know the term, though from what little I've seen it's often used as a catchphrase to replace 'we don't know why this happens'.

Are you familiar with sources that give rigorous mathematical definitions, toolkits for exploring emergent behavior or, barring anything concrete, a guide on how to think about emergent behavior? Maybe a course/textbook that you're familiar with and could recommend?

Thanks...
 
This is the problem when trying to 'reverse engineer' systems. You can end up with two boxes which do the same thing . . . usually.
 
query_ious said:
Are you familiar with sources that give rigorous mathematical definitions, toolkits for exploring emergent behavior or, barring anything concrete, a guide on how to think about emergent behavior? Maybe a course/textbook that you're familiar with and could recommend?
Thanks...

I don't know your level of preparation, so here's a few:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/9814366609/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/186094504X/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1107008255/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3319107585/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/364236585X/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for the links, I'll see what my library has and give it a go...
 

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