How certain is dog domestication dating?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blackberg
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dating of dog domestication, exploring hypotheses regarding the timeline and methods used to estimate these dates. Participants reference genetic and archaeological evidence, as well as the reliability of different dating methods.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the credibility of a hypothesis linking early dog domestication to innovations in human behavior, citing a specific archaeological reference.
  • Others propose that dogs were domesticated between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago, referencing a study that narrows the origin of dogs.
  • One participant highlights the variability in dating estimates derived from DNA sequences, suggesting that different methods can yield vastly different results.
  • Concerns are raised about the uncertainty in genetic dating methods, with references to discrepancies in mutation rates and the implications for the reliability of genetic evidence in estimating domestication dates.
  • A participant suggests that the discussion may be better suited for an anthropologist forum, indicating a perceived disconnect between the fields of physics and anthropology in addressing the question.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the timeline of dog domestication and the reliability of genetic dating methods. There is no consensus on the accuracy of the proposed dates or the methodologies used to derive them.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that estimates from genetic evidence should be approached with skepticism and must be contextualized with archaeological and anthropological data. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties in the field regarding mutation rates and their implications for dating domestication events.

Blackberg
Messages
29
Reaction score
20
I'm mostly trained as a physicist, so I'm wondering, on a scale from crackpot (1) to imressive (9), where does this hypothesis rank to an anthropologist?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618214002729?showall=true&via=ihub

"I hypothesize that this innovation may have been facilitated by an early attempted domestication of dogs, as indicated by a group of genetically and morphologically distinct large canids which first appear in archaeological sites at about 32 ka B.P. (uncal)."
 
Biology news on Phys.org
Blackberg said:
I'm mostly trained as a physicist, so I'm wondering, on a scale from crackpot (1) to imressive (9), where does this hypothesis rank to an anthropologist?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618214002729?showall=true&via=ihub

"I hypothesize that this innovation may have been facilitated by an early attempted domestication of dogs, as indicated by a group of genetically and morphologically distinct large canids which first appear in archaeological sites at about 32 ka B.P. (uncal)."
So, what are you trying to propose?

Dogs were domesticated between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2014/01/study-narrows-origin-dogs
 
Evo said:
Dogs were domesticated between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2014/01/study-narrows-origin-dogs

It's worth noting that estimating dates from DNA sequences (as the PLoS Genetics paper you are citing does) can often lead to vastly different estimates depending on the exact methods used. From the Nature news piece:

Last year, population geneticist David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, and his colleagues compared the genome of a 45,000-year-old human from Siberia with genomes of modern humans and came up with the lower mutation rate2. Yet just before the Leipzig meeting, which Reich co-organized with Kay Prüfer of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, his team published a preprint article3 that calculated an intermediate mutation rate by looking at differences between paired stretches of chromosomes in modern individuals (which, like two separate individuals’ DNA, must ultimately trace back to a common ancestor). Reich is at a loss to explain the discrepancy. “The fact that the clock is so uncertain is very problematic for us,” he says. “It means that the dates we get out of genetics are really quite embarrassingly bad and uncertain.”
(emphasis mine)

Now, a lot of careful work has been done calibrating the human "molecular clock," but it's unclear whether similar careful work has been done on dogs to see, for example, whether mutation rates have changed throughout history in various dog and wolf populations. Work in this area is certainly still evolving and dates estimated from genetic evidence alone should invite skepticism. Such estimates must take into account archaeological, anthropological, and other forms of evidence as well.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Evo