How do I calculate permutations of a multi-set with limited elements?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating permutations of a multi-set with limited elements, specifically how to determine the number of distinct arrangements of a subset of elements drawn from multi-sets. The scope includes theoretical exploration and practical application related to combinatorial mathematics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks a formula for permutations of a multi-set where not all elements are used, providing examples of sets and the desired outcomes.
  • Another participant questions the necessity of multiple sets, suggesting that a simpler representation might be more effective.
  • A participant reflects on their initial approach using a list of numbers instead of sets, indicating confusion about the application of multi-set permutations.
  • One participant confirms that the problem is indeed a multi-set issue but expresses uncertainty about the existence of an analytical formula, suggesting enumeration as a possible method to find the solution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the problem involves permutations of a multi-set, but there is no consensus on the method to derive a solution or whether an analytical formula exists.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the clarity of the problem statement, particularly in how sets are defined and the implications of using repetitions in the calculations. The discussion also highlights the potential complexity of the problem, suggesting that a straightforward formula may not be applicable.

Crazorin
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[mentor note: THis is not a homework assignment. It is for a work project.]

I need a formula that is probably based on permutations of multi-set. Except in my case you will not use up all elements of the sets, only some of them.

For example I have the following sets: {1,1,1}{2}{3};

Altogether 5 elements and I need to find out how many 3 digit numbers can be created. So I would use only 3 of the 5 elements.

Or the sets could be {1,1}{2,2,2}{3}; 6 elements to create 4 digit number.
 
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Why are there multiple sets? Is the first set allowed elements for the first digit?

Can you give a more concrete example as sets like {1,1,1} is really the set {1}?
 
jedishrfu said:
Why are there multiple sets? Is the first set allowed elements for the first digit?

Can you give a more concrete example as sets like {1,1,1} is really the set {1}?

When I originally wrote up the problem, I didn't used sets.
I approached it as I have 6 numbers: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3. How many different 4 digit number can be created of these 6 numbers?
Then someone said, what I need is the permutation of multi-set. In that case you handle each repetition as a set and than use the size of the sets in the formula.
Following this line you would get 3 sets with the size of 2, 3 and 1; and the permutation of the multi-set would be 5!/(2!3!1!)

So I thought after a learned that the permutation of multi-set seems to be the closest what I need out of the million different permutation/combination formulas, I decided to write up the problem with sets, instead of just a list of numbers.

I am not sure if the solution to my problem is a modification of the permutation of a multi-set, or I need a completely different approach.
 
This is indeed a multiset problem, but not a simple one. You want the number of permutations of 4 items from the multiset {1, 1, 1, 2, 3}. I am not sure there is an analytical formula for this but they are simple to enumerate algorithmically:
Code:
1    1    1
1    1    2
1    1    3
1    2    1
1    2    3
1    3    1
1    3    2
2    1    1
2    1    3
2    3    1
3    1    1
3    1    2
3    2    1
So the answer is 21.
 

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