How Do Metal and Hydrogen Ions Interact During Electrolysis?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of metal and hydrogen ions during electrolysis, particularly focusing on the products formed when electrolyzing different ionic solutions. Participants explore the conditions under which metals or hydrogen are produced at the electrodes, as well as the implications of these reactions in the context of chemical properties and stability.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants explain that during electrolysis, the product formed at the negative electrode depends on the reactivity of the metal ions compared to hydrogen ions.
  • One participant suggests that copper can be deposited from copper sulfate solution, while sodium would be deposited from sodium chloride solution, raising questions about the stability of sodium in water.
  • There is a discussion about the reaction of sodium with water, with some participants noting that sodium is a metal that reacts explosively, producing hydrogen gas.
  • Participants debate the nature of sodium, with some asserting it is a metal while others mistakenly refer to it as a base, leading to confusion about its properties and behavior in water.
  • One participant correctly writes the reaction equation for sodium and water, but there is uncertainty about whether sodium can be a product of electrolysis in water due to its reactivity.
  • There is a suggestion that if sodium were produced during electrolysis, it would immediately react with water, implying it cannot be a stable product.
  • Ultimately, hydrogen gas is identified as the product of electrolysis in this context, rather than sodium.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the behavior of sodium during electrolysis and its classification as a metal or base. The discussion remains unresolved on certain points, particularly regarding the implications of sodium's reactivity and the conditions under which it could be produced.

Contextual Notes

Some participants lack background knowledge on the chemical reactions involved, which leads to misunderstandings about the properties of sodium and its behavior in electrolysis. There are also references to external resources that may not be fully understood by all participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students learning about electrolysis, chemical reactions, and the properties of metals and ions in solution.

Celluhh
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Homework Statement





Predicting the products of electrolysis
Ionic substances in solution break down into elements during electrolysis. Different elements are released depending on the particular ionic substance.


At the negative electrode, positively charged ions gain electrons. This is reduction, and you say that the ions have been reduced.

Metal ions and hydrogen ions are positively charged. Whether you get the metal or hydrogen during electrolysis depends on the position of the metal in the reactivity series:

the metal will be produced if it is less reactive than hydrogen
hydrogen will be produced if the metal is more reactive than hydrogen



i don't understand. exactly what does metal ions have to do with hydrogen ions?
 
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I suppose one way to think about it which should be supplemented by othera is is to say OK when you electrolyse copper sulphate solution in water you can get copper metal deposited. So if you electrolyse sodium chloride solution in water you should get sodium metal deposited. In water. What happens when you drop sodium metal in water? I hope you have seen it - not likely to forget.
 
epenguin said:
What happens when you drop sodium metal in water? I hope you have seen it - not likely to forget.

heh. as a matter of fact i have not seen it?
 
The extraction of copper from copper ore is done by reduction with carbon. However, the copper produced is not pure enough for use as a conductor.

can someone please explain to me what the above statements mean?
 
errrr... i don't really get the video...what are the white stuff formed at the end of the chemical reaction?
 
Do you know what is the reaction? Can you try to write reaction equation? If you are learning about electrolysis you should already know a little bit about chemistry, and reaction of sodium with water is one the most basic things (pun not intended (hint intended)) taught at chemistry courses.
 
nope, my school missed out on acids and alkalis, i learned electrolysis based on chemical effects of an electric current. lol. but i have learned how to form and balance chemical equations.
is it this: 2Na + 2H2O ----> 2NaOH + H2
 
Celluhh said:
2Na + 2H2O ----> 2NaOH + H2

That's right.

Now, there are two products. Which one is popping? Which can be a white solid?
 
  • #10
um... is sodium the white solid?
 
  • #11
Sodium is a soft metal - in this vid you can see them cutting it.


It is only shiny for a short time after it is cut, it is reactive and reacts with oxygen or I suppose moisture in the air to form a film.

Sodium reacts chemically with water liberating hydrogen which is what burns explosively the several videos you can see. Which is the next best thing to seeing it in the teaching lab which unfortunately you have not had. Seeing these things gives meaning and memorability to the theory which now you have to read up, we cannot write a textbook for you, find an elementary one,good luck :smile:. Chemistry does not get simpler than the chemistry of sodium so it was a good starting point.
 
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  • #12
Celluhh said:
um... is sodium the white solid?

I told you to look for PRODUCTS.
 
  • #13
Borek said:
I told you to look for PRODUCTS.


uhhuh. but how do you expect someone like me who does not have any background knowledge on the chemical reaction between sodium and water to actually UNDERSTAND your questions which provide no further explanations? i was just making a guess, a harmless one. By the way, i would really appreciate it if you could be more patient with someone who seems like an idiot.
 
  • #14
I am patient, I am trying to give you clear hints.

At this moment you know everything you need - you just have to apply this knowledge to the video.

Sodium is a metal, right? How do metal looks? Do they look like a white powder?
 
  • #15
nope but all i saw were white sparks here and there.

sorry for my previous post, i admit I'm kinda short-tempered.
 
  • #17
the white sparks are sodium hydroxide?
 
  • #18
That's the only logical conclusion.
 
  • #19
erm... but where does this lead us to??
 
  • #20
You asked about products of electrolysis - now imagine sodium is a product of electrolysis in water. Will such system be stable?
 
  • #21
Borek said:
You asked about products of electrolysis - now imagine sodium is a product of electrolysis in water. Will such system be stable?

um i don't really get you. what do you mean by if such a system will be stable?
 
  • #22
You have seen what happens when metallic sodium is put into water. Assuming metallic sodium is a product of water solution electrolysis - will it stay in the metallic form in water?
 
  • #23
no? (um, I'm actually not sure so pls don't laugh>.<)
 
  • #24
uh i found this:

an acid is a substance that produces H+ ions when dissolved in water.
when H+ ions are not present, the acid does not display the typical acid chemical properties.



hmmm the web says sodium is a base. so its doesn't produce H+ ions?
so its a base and is soluble in water??
 
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  • #25
Celluhh said:
no?

That's a logical conclusion, isn't it? Sodium spontaneously reacts with water, if it would be an electrolysis product it would react with water immediately - so either it can't be a product, or even if it is, it reacts immediately and disappears (so it is not a product of the process).

Celluhh said:
uh i found this:

an acid is a substance that produces H+ ions when dissolved in water.
when H+ ions are not present, the acid does not display the typical acid chemical properties.

hmmm the web says sodium is a base. so its doesn't produce H+ ions?
so its a base and is soluble in water??

I must say you've lost me. Sodium is not a base, sodium is a metal. You were just shown how it behaves in water, you wrote a correct reaction equation (no H+ between products), now you write things as if you have never seen your own earlier posts.
 
  • #26
Borek said:
That's a logical conclusion, isn't it? Sodium spontaneously reacts with water, if it would be an electrolysis product it would react with water immediately - so either it can't be a product, or even if it is, it reacts immediately and disappears (so it is not a product of the process).

ummmm ur saying it reacts but if it did it would be a product yet its not a product??i'm sorry i know I'm slow.>.<


I must say you've lost me. Sodium is not a base, sodium is a metal. You were just shown how it behaves in water, you wrote a correct reaction equation (no H+ between products), now you write things as if you have never seen your own earlier posts.

yeah i must admit i have no idea what I'm writing either. haiz.
 
  • #27
Celluhh said:
ummmm ur saying it reacts but if it did it would be a product yet its not a product??

Even if it would be produced, it would be consumed by another process, so after you would finish the experiment, there would be no traces of sodium.
 
  • #28
oh i c! so hyrdrogen gas is produced instead?
 
  • #29
Yes :smile:
 

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