How much worse is the location of La Palma vs. Mauna Kea?

[swampwiz]

I understand that some Hawaiian natives are getting restless about the 30-Meter Telescope there, and it might get moved to La Palma.

 

[256bits]

Maybe some context on why the natives are getting restless.
And who proposes moving it.

 

[PAllen]

Maybe some context on why the natives are getting restless.
And who proposes moving it.

I have no idea of the relative merits of the two locations for the purposes of large telescopes. As for the background of the opposition, this is easy to find. I post two links with no implied endorsement, just for background, and a little discussion of La Palma (second link):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppos...Observatories#Thirty_Meter_Telescope_proposalhttps://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii
To avoid discussion outside bounds of PF, discussion should focus on site tradeoffs. Unfortunately, I have nothing to provide on this point.

 

[swampwiz]

I have no idea of the relative merits of the two locations for the purposes of large telescopes. As for the background of the opposition, this is easy to find. I post two links with no implied endorsement, just for background, and a little discussion of La Palma (second link):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppos...Observatories#Thirty_Meter_Telescope_proposalhttps://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii
To avoid discussion outside bounds of PF, discussion should focus on site tradeoffs. Unfortunately, I have nothing to provide on this point.

Yes, I'm just interested in how much of a degradation La Palma is from Mauna Kea. I understand why the folks there are mad (although it would seem that they should be plenty mad already from all the observatories there).

 

[Steelwolf]

So far I find they are mostly mad that old buildings have not been removed as had been required in the prior treaties that allowed them to build observatories there, that and they want the researchers to have some idea of the Holiness of the place. If only the researchers could get good contractors to in good faith remove the structures that were supposed to have been, and then explain that the reason that people want to use the mountain for star viewing is because it IS Sacred, it IS Special, being the actual tallest mountain in the world and clear with little light pollution as most other places in the world face, that the mountain IS Special, to the Native Hawaiians as well as to the scientific community.

Better communications there are certainly needed, but one can see the cultural vs the scientific colliding yet again due to not taking the cultural as importantly as the scientific, when the cultural may be more important.

 

[swampwiz]

Yes, I can see trading in some of the older observatories - and certain the remediation of any unused structures - there in exchange for the 30-meter telescope. What would be the order of least importance for the current observatories?

 

[Steelwolf]

I am not sure which ones exactly, but I do know that a lot of the mess-up was because it had been agreed that after a certain time period that certain buildings come down, well, they got re-purposed instead, and so the Hawaiian Elders felt that the scientists were not holding to their word, that they were being dishonorable. Part of the problem is that there was a lack of communication between groups of scientists and builders, and not all held to the requirements and, at the time period, the elders were not taken very seriously then, seen as more of an appeasement move than anything else, and so the Elders were right, the People who DID do that were not trust-worthy. Scoundrels do their work behind the backs of honorable men.

A whole new beginning needs to be done. There needs to be a sitting down of scientists, builders and the all tribes, not just the elders, but all of them, and work out what went wrong before. Explain that the Mountain IS Sacred to the scientific world as it is to the Hawaiian's. She is the Tallest Volcanic Mountain in the world!

Work out what needs to be done to remove the older, offending structures that have so far caused harm. New Purification and acceptance rituals for telescopes existing and to make sure that there is ALWAYS a Hawaiian Tribal Presence at these observatories. And a familiarization and cultural class might be made mandatory for all researchers there, researchers would get a chance to learn things away from their core, making them better researchers overall.

But one might also note that Pelee herself has always had the ability to purify Her Mountains, and if the Observatories actually offended HER that much, then she would have shaken them off like sand from a dog.

I would LOVE to be able to go over and help them in their new set of negotiations, because I am able to see both sides of the coin, as well as the edges of it, and how much both groups could gain from the other if there was just a little more trust involved.