Icy, calculating ABB used expanding bullets forbidden in warfare

[arildno]

Probably in order to maximize damage to his victims, Anders Behring Breivik had hoarded so-called "dum dum" bullets, i.e hollow bullets that expand when entering the target's body.

These bullets are prohibited by just about every international convention regarding legitimate warfare!

However, in order to minimize length of suffering in big game hunting, such bullets are allowed circulation and are, in fact, OBLIGATORY ammunition in Norway for those engaged in big game hunting (typically for hunting moose).

The paradox in Norwegian weapons laws are that we have extremely restrictive laws with respect to hand guns (and smug US-bashers say how fortunate we are not to have permissive, "American" conditions on this issue).
HOWEVER, when it comes to hunting, I believe we have very permissive laws, somewhat akin to Canadian regulations.

Thus, Anders Behring Breivik has over the years hoarded some of the most deadly arsenal in circulation, precisely because he wanted MAXIMUM destruction, and minimizing the number of survivors.

 

[mheslep]

Has it been determined if he acted alone yet, or not?

 

[arildno]

HE has said he acted alone, but has claimed in his manifesto that he is a "Justiciar Knight" in some sort of Temple Order of sympathizers.

The police has NOT ruled out that he acted in concert with someone else (that is still investigated and they need to interview a number of traumatized teenagers whether he WAS alone, or whether they saw somebody else as well), but has declined to comment on whether this Temple Order is a real group or just a figment of his imagination.

 

[arildno]

UPDATE ON BULLET TYPE:

Chief surgeon Colin Poole at Bærum Hospital has never seen the type of wounds caused by Breivik's murder spree:

The surgeons find entry wounds, but no exit wounds.
But, in contrast to wounds caused by standard expanding bullets there is an utter lack of large bullet fragments within the victims.

This indicates that the bullet has practically dissolved, something that makes him speculate ABB used "frangible bullets", a bullet type used by armed guards at US planes (probably for "safe" use in the extreme situation of having to shoot INSIDE a plane, but not cause a hole in it??)

Problem is:
Where the heck could ABB get such ammunition?
This is NOT something you can get in connection with "big game" hunting.

 

[Proton Soup]

maybe he made his own bullets. I'm not sure what it takes to make one "frangible", but reloading is fairly common, and expansion is simply a matter of shaping the lead. could be as simple as a recast with some impurities?

 

[Evo]

What a dispicable monster. I've seen on tv where criminals hollow out the bullets themselves, which is illegal, so perhaps he *customized* his bullets too.

 

[talk2glenn]

Where the heck could ABB get such ammunition?

I'm not sure what the laws are like in Norway, but in the United States this type of ammunition is readily and legally available. It is significantly less dangerous to the person not being shot than conventional ammo, and is widely used in law enforcement, hunting, and sport shooting.

Frankly, the same thing is probably true in Norway; it's typically easier to get frangible rounds than conventional in the civilian market. The military ban on such ammo is an anachronism, carried over from old 19th century arms conventions. The only reason it stands is that there is no battlefield demand. These bullets fail utterly against any kind of armored or covered target, and have to be fired at lower velocities.

 

[arildno]

This guy has relished in providing meticulous accounts of every detail in his gruesome project.

in a newspaper today, it says that on one the pictures, he is showing how to make expanding bullets by dripping lead onto them.
I'm not sure that's all to it, but I'm sure ABB has an excruciatingly detailed report on that issue in his sick manifesto.

Not that I want to read it.

 

[mege]

Somewhat realated: I read an article that he had planned to dip the bullets in near-pure nicotine to act as a poison. Forensics haven't confirmed this yet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Breivik-Dum-dum-bullets-injected-poision.html

(There was a better article that I read regarding this, but it was from home and I don't remember the exact source)

 

[Moatman]

What a dispicable monster. I've seen on tv where criminals hollow out the bullets themselves, which is illegal, so perhaps he *customized* his bullets too.

Just to clear this up, unless he happens to be a signatory to the Hague conventions, the bullets aren't illegal (I don't know if they're illegal in Norway, but that's beside the point. I'm not defending him, and I agree with you that he's a despicable monster, but I want to clear up the misunderstanding.

 

[drankin]

These are the same hollow point bullets I keep in my sidearm. The same most people keep in their personal carry pistols. I think noting some "warfare" rules is a little about nothing.

 

[pantaz]

Wow... there is a LOT of poorly researched reporting coming out of some respected news services. Breivik committed horrendous acts. The truth is bewlidering enough without attributing such inaccuracies.

Historically, the term "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum-dum" ammunition. I don't know who's report first used the term, but it's appearing in nearly every article I come across.

While this type of bullet is commonly claimed to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet#Legality", which states:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.​

In the U.S., only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#New_Jersey" of hollow-point ammunition, but it can hardly be called illegal.

maybe he made his own bullets. I'm not sure what it takes to make one "frangible", but reloading is fairly common, and expansion is simply a matter of shaping the lead. could be as simple as a recast with some impurities?

Modern frangible bullets (often lead-free) are meant to break apart into fine particles upon impact with a hard surface. They are commonly used in training and on shooting ranges to prevent ricochets. Some types are designed for self defense or hunting, and do fragment into somewhat larger pieces. From what I have read, successful designs appear difficult to perfect, and manufacturing requires rather specialized machinery/techniques.

He apparently obtained the rifle on the pretense of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657727/Norway-shooting-quotes-from-Anders-Behring-Breiviks-online-manifesto.html" . That, along with descriptions of the injuries, leads me to believe he used hunting ammunition.

What a dispicable monster. I've seen on tv where criminals hollow out the bullets themselves, which is illegal, so perhaps he *customized* his bullets too.

I've never seen such a law. Besides, hollow-point ammunition is commonly available. Aside from making an interesting scene in a television show/movie, "hollowing out" individual rounds would be silly.

Various reports say Breivik intended to inject nicotine (as a poison) into hollow-point bullets. In his manifesto, he apparently http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...reivik-Dum-dum-bullets-injected-poision.html", "3-4 drops will be injected in hollow point rifle bullets, which will effectively turn it into a lethal chemical weapon." Tests are underway to determine if he actually did.

With so much attention on the shooting, I can't find many details about the bomb. Numerous reports say he purchased six tons of fertilizer, but none say if the bomb actually used that much, and at least one article mentions rumors of additional devices.

 

[arildno]

With so much attention on the shooting, I can't find many details about the bomb. Numerous reports say he purchased six tons of fertilizer, but none say if the bomb actually used that much, and at least one article mentions rumors of additional devices.

3 tons unused fertilizer was found on his farm
In addition, he had made a lot more bomb material, found at the farm, and the police made a controlled explosion of that material a few days ago (forgetting to alert some of the neighbours, BTW..).
The bomb itself is estimated to have been at around a ton or so, but these quantitative details aren't yet solid enough

 

[klimatos]

UPDATE ON BULLET TYPE: This indicates that the bullet has practically dissolved, something that makes him speculate ABB used "frangible bullets", a bullet type used by armed guards at US planes (probably for "safe" use in the extreme situation of having to shoot INSIDE a plane, but not cause a hole in it??)

Problem is:
Where the heck could ABB get such ammunition?
This is NOT something you can get in connection with "big game" hunting.

Such bullets; i. e., "frangible" bullets, are widely available both in the U. S. and in Europe. Farmers use them to shoot fox, weasels, raccoons, rats, possums and other pests because these bullets will not penetrate walls to kill family, neighbors, and livestock. They break apart on first impact with almost anything offerings resistance. They are often quite colorful in their unfired state so that those who use their weapons for both pest control and hunting will not confuse them with hunting rounds.

They are, of course, quite lethal. If they were not, they would be useless for pest control.

 

[Adyssa]

A truly twisted man.

However, in the context of war, I don't quite understand the logic behind banning certain munitions. It's like, hey you can shoot someone, but you can't shoot them with this bullet because that would be mean. You can drop bunker-busting, armor-piercing, depleted uranium tipped, incendiary bombs but OH NO you can't drop cluster bombs, cause that's would fly in the face of the whole spirit of warfare and we just couldn't have that.

YOU SHOT SOMEONE. YOU BOMBED THEM. If you didn't want to hurt them, maybe you could have tried NOT USING A WEAPON IN THE FIRST PLACE! How about ... oh, I don't know .. this might sound WAY OUT THERE, but maybe you could try settling your differences peacefully like mature adults, a notion that people in power seem to forget really ****** quickly.

Ban them all IMHO. People survived for a long, long time before we had guns, and they also managed to kill each other, albeit less efficiently, although that's kind of an upside if you ask me (gasp).

 

[Office_Shredder]

Adyssa, do you realize that it is not uncommon in war to shoot or bomb someone who you actually didn't intend to hurt?

 

[pantaz]

... However, in the context of war, I don't quite understand the logic behind banning certain munitions. It's like, hey you can shoot someone, but you can't shoot them with this bullet because that would be mean. ...

I figure it's one of those "design by committee" type of deals. A bunch of bureaucrats gather together to set rules of engagement. Then, they all go home, patting themselves on the back for making warfare more "humane".

 

[Adyssa]

Adyssa, do you realize that it is not uncommon in war to shoot or bomb someone who you actually didn't intend to hurt?

Naturally. I just think it's a damn shame that while we can send a man to the moon, we can't live together on the same planet without murdering everyone. Why should we intend to hurt anyone?

I know I know, they started it, if we don't get them they'll get us, they're animals, we can't reason with them, blah blah blah.

Somebody has to stop first.

You don't protect the world by arming it and then destroying it.

 

[arildno]

Neither do you protect the "world" by disarming and therefore enable others to destroy it.
That slave mentality is, actually, deeply immoral and inhumane.

 

[Adyssa]

Can you elaborate on slave mentality?

 

[arildno]

Can you elaborate on slave mentality?

By refusing yourself (and others you hope to convince) means of self-defense, you make yourself (and others) into tempting targets for those who want to prey on you.
Of course, as long as you keep onto that mentality, you will start to creep and bow before your oppressor, in order to to retain an abased, abused existence.

And THAT is deeply immoral to accept for yourself, and even worse demand that others should do.

 

[Adyssa]

That sounds .. kind of paranoid to me.

Was Ghandi one of these immoral people?

 

[arildno]

That sounds .. kind of paranoid to me.

Was Ghandi one of these immoral people?

He certainly was.

 

[mheslep]

I think that argument is misdirected at method rather than position. It would properly apply only if, as you say, Ghandi agreed to indefinitely accept British oppression with full compliance. Ghandi no more accepted British rule than the Allies accepted Hitler's occupation of Europe by deciding not to madly assault the French coast in 1941.

 

[arildno]

Gandhi was a complete failure when he urged, and restrained, Hindus from retaliating, or even getting compensation, from a number of grotesque massacres of Hindus by Muslims. his fantasy of inter-religious harmony was just that. A dangerous fantasy and delusion.

That the British lacked the ruthlessness to suppress Gandhi's dove movement is not a good argument that his policy was morally sound.
It was not, Gandhi is an over-rated figure, with Nehru, for example, being by far the most constructive politician.

 

[Adyssa]

Food for thought I guess, although you've done nothing but further my disgust in humanity. What a terrible world we inhabit.

 

[drankin]

Food for thought I guess, although you've done nothing but further my disgust in humanity. What a terrible world we inhabit.

It is what it is and always has been. Sorry to see that you thought otherwise.

 

[mheslep]

... you've done nothing but further my disgust in humanity. What a terrible world we inhabit.

Consider that the murderer Breivik likely thinks similarly about people. Makes it that much easier to go out and shootup humanity.

 

[arildno]

Food for thought I guess, although you've done nothing but further my disgust in humanity. What a terrible world we inhabit.

Why?
To fully accept the existence of evil in the world, horrible, ineradicable evil, sets you free:
YOU are not responsible in any way to take upon yourself a Saviour role for the whole world.
YOU are a being of limited capacities and all that can be required of you is that you put your own talents to their best use.
You won't be able to change the whole world a lot, but you can make the limited region you yourself influence into a zone of love and beauty others will appreciate, and admire you for having created and upheld.

World-saving heroism is something the Breiviks of this world are enthused about..