Imine/Amine with NaBH4/H3O+ question w/ pics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the reduction mechanism of imines to amines using sodium borohydride (NaBH4) and hydronium (H3O+). Participants seek clarification on the steps involved in this reaction, particularly how the nitrogen atom in the imine gains an additional hydrogen atom during the process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests clarification on the reduction mechanism of imines to amines, specifically how the nitrogen acquires an additional hydrogen atom.
  • Another participant explains that NaBH4 dissociates in water to provide a hydride ion (H-), which acts as a nucleophile attacking the carbonyl carbon of the imine.
  • This nucleophilic attack results in a formal negative charge on the nitrogen, which then complexes with NaBH3+ in solution.
  • It is noted that the final amine product is obtained after hydrolysis under acidic conditions, where the nitrogen grabs a proton from H3O+, providing the extra hydrogen.
  • A later reply suggests that a mixture of ionic complexes may form after the nucleophilic addition and recommends using "M+" instead of NaBH3+ for clarity in drawings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the steps involved in the reduction mechanism, but there are nuances regarding the representation of ionic complexes and the specifics of proton transfer that remain open to interpretation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention the potential complexity of the ionic species formed during the reaction, indicating that the discussion may depend on specific definitions and representations of the reagents involved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students preparing for organic chemistry quizzes or anyone interested in the mechanisms of nucleophilic addition reactions involving imines and amines.

rfig08d
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Please note: this is NOT a homework question. I am reviewing my notes for next week's quiz and I need some clarification.

Hi everyone! I'm a little bit stumped on this as I cannot see the reaction!

Does anyone know a useful link for imine to amine reduction mechanism using sodium borohydride and hydronium ( 1) NaBH4 2) H3O+ ) as reagents? Specifically this mini-synthesis (in screenshot). I know how NaBH4 works with most compounds, but for some reason I cannot see how the nitrogen obtained another hydrogen.

[PLAIN]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/720/imine.jpg
(Ignore the mechanism, look at the reactions below it)
How does the final product obtain the hydrogen attached to the nitrogen? What's the 1st step without hydronium acting on it?
[PLAIN]http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5369/imine2.jpg

I hate to ask, but a picture would be 100% more helpful than words right now. If I can see it once, then I have it set... so if anyone has a link or can draw a quick mechanism (doesn't have to be detailed, I just want to see how the hydrogen attaching on the nitrogen gets there), I would REALLY appreciate it. I only need 1 reaction explained, I simply provided the other ones as extra.

Thank you!
 
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Well I can't draw a picture right now, so I hope you can settle with words. Draw a picture to follow along, you'll learn it better if you're comfortable drawing it. In water, Sodium Borohydride (NaBH4) dissociates according to the following reaction:

NaBH4 ---> NaBH3+ + H-

So now you've got your hydride acting as a nucleophile. It's the same picture as all the other nucleophilic attacks on carbonyl groups: H- bonds to the carbonyl group's carbon, shifting electron density up to the nitrogen atom. There is now a lone pair on the nitrogen atom, giving it a formal negative charge. But remember, you've got NaBH3+ in solution still; as such, it complexes with the formally negative nitrogen atom.

The first step of the reaction is now done, but the product is not the amine that you are after! To liberate the amine, you have to hydrolyze the complex under acidic conditions--that's why you use H3O+. THIS is where that extra hydrogen comes from. Remember, what's the fastest reaction in organic chemistry? Proton transfer. So when you've got that nitrogen with that extra lone pair on it under acidic conditions, it's going to grab the proton off the H3O+.

By the way, that third picture reminds me of my final in my second semester of O. Chem. We were asked to write a synthesis of that substance (whose discussion is not permitted on that forum) from that very precursor (the ketone).
 
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Remember, what's the fastest reaction in organic chemistry? Proton transfer. So when you've got that nitrogen with that extra lone pair on it under acidic conditions, it's going to grab the proton off the H3O+.
Ahh thank you.

This is what I've been looking for!

I drew out the picture based on your words:

[PLAIN]http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8369/imines3.jpg
(The scratched out lines in part 2 is a single bond... accidentally put a double bond)

Thank you very much, I really appreciate your help! :-)
 
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I want to add a bit more of an explanation here and also a suggestion for if you're asked to draw this mechanism on your quiz. It's likely that a mixture of ionic complexes form after the nucleophilic addition of the hydride to the carbonyl group. It may simply be better to write "M+" instead of NaBH3+. The point is that in order to remove that cation, you must perform acid hydrolysis (which is where you extra proton comes from, again).

Kind of a minor detail, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
 

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