Intro to Abstract Math Question about divison of integers.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the divisibility of integers, specifically whether a number \( n \) is divisible by the product of two integers \( a \) and \( b \) if and only if \( n \) is divisible by both \( a \) and \( b \). Participants explore the implications of this statement and provide examples to illustrate their points.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that \( n \) is divisible by \( ab \) if and only if \( n \) is divisible by \( a \) and \( n \) is divisible by \( b \), but expresses uncertainty about the validity of this claim.
  • Another participant asserts that the statement is false unless the greatest common divisor (gcd) of \( a \) and \( b \) is 1.
  • Several participants provide counterexamples to demonstrate the falsehood of the original statement, such as choosing \( n = 8 \), \( a = 3 \), and \( b = 2 \), where \( n \) is divisible by both \( a \) and \( b \) but not by \( ab \).
  • Further examples are discussed, including \( a = 6 \), \( b = 15 \), and \( n = 30 \), illustrating that while \( n \) is divisible by both \( a \) and \( b \), it is not divisible by their product \( ab \).
  • Participants highlight that the correct relationship involves the least common multiple (lcm) of \( a \) and \( b \), noting that \( n \) is divisible by the lcm rather than the product.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the original statement is false, but there is a lack of consensus on the conditions under which it might hold true, particularly regarding the gcd of \( a \) and \( b \). Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of divisibility.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the need for a two-part proof in if-and-only-if statements, indicating that the discussion is focused on the logical structure of the claim rather than providing a definitive resolution to the problem.

blastoise
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(1)Assume a, b and n are nonzero integers. Prove that n is divisible by ab if and
only if n is divisible by a and n is divisible by b.I'm wrong and can't remember why. I spoke to the professor about it for ~ 1 minute so it seems to have slipped my mind, it was because in one case it's true and in the other it isn't here is my proof:

(2)Let a,b and n be non zero integers and assume ab|n. Since ab|n and because a and b must be integers they must both be factors of n. Thus, if a|n or b|n is false then ab will not be a factor of n which means ab∤n.
Thus, ab|n if and only a|n and b|n where a, b and n are non zero integers.But, then I pulled from a website "[if and only if ]means you must prove that A and B are true and false at the same time. In other words, you must prove "If A then B" and "If not A then not B". Equivalently, you must prove "If A then B" and "If B then A".

I believe that (2) shows if Statement {A} then {B}.
So how would you show if not Statement {a} then not {B}?

I'm going to say
Suppose ab ∤ n is true then a ∤ n and b∤n

Let a = 10, b = 10, n = 10

ab∤ n, but b|n and a|n

The thing I don't understand is how does that disprove (1).

So, the question I'm asking is: Is statement (1) considered true or considered false taken as is. Also, if you could rip my proof apart would be great help(don't hold back criticize away XD )Thanks
 
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Statement (1) is false. It becomes true if you add the assumption that gcd(a,b)=1.
 
It's false, because you when you say if and only if it is the same things as

If-And-Only-If Proofs
Often, a statement we need to prove is of the form
\X if and only if Y ." We are then required to do
two things:
1. Prove the if-part: Assume Y and prove X.
2. Prove the only-if-part: Assume X, prove Y .

taken from http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ullman/ialc/slides/slides1.pdf

Did 1.

But, number 2 is
Assume n is divisible by b and n is divisible by a if n is divisible by abChoose n = 8, b = 2 a = 3
n is divisible by b and n is divisible by a but n is not divisible by ab

so it's false
thx norwegian i see what you mean
 
blastoise said:
It's false, because you when you say if and only if it is the same things as

If-And-Only-If Proofs
Often, a statement we need to prove is of the form
\X if and only if Y ." We are then required to do
two things:
1. Prove the if-part: Assume Y and prove X.
2. Prove the only-if-part: Assume X, prove Y .

taken from http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ullman/ialc/slides/slides1.pdf

Did 1.

But, number 2 is
Assume n is divisible by b and n is divisible by a if n is divisible by ab


Choose n = 8, b = 2 a = 3
n is divisible by b and n is divisible by a but n is not divisible by ab

so it's false
thx norwegian i see what you mean

8 is not divisible by 3.

let's pick a better example, where a and b have "some factor in common".

so suppose a = 6, and b = 15, and n = 30. then a|n (because 30 = 6*5), and b|n (because 30 = 15*2), but it's pretty obvious ab = 90 does NOT divide 30 (for one, it's bigger).

in general, you only know that n is divisible by the least common multiple of a and b. in our example above, lcm(6,15) = 30, and indeed 30 divides 30.
 

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