Physics Is a Physics Masters Degree Useless? Considering the Next Step

[ChrisVer]

The first type described would not be ready for any advanced degree program, but the second type described could very well be ready for an advanced degree program, INCLUDING to a PhD program

advanced degree program = MSc... and yes, A or Bs should be eligible for a master program, a C should be disfavored.
I am not including PhD in that... a PhD is a researcher (doing their research), teacher (teaching up-to advanced classes) and guide (he can have a small group). An A BSc-degree is not enough to give eligibility to any of those... I still don't see how a BSc (even a major) could do that job. Except for if the PhD holds for 4 years (instead of 3) and the student is made to attend advanced classes + only research their topic for the 1st year (equivalent to doing a boosted-master degree).

 

[symbolipoint]

Right. PhD program is not for just an average bachelor's degree graduate. Some undergraduate students definitely found research experience and many are sharp enough to have done a few graduate-level courses in their major field. Some undergrad. programs have a research requirement as part of the process to earn the undergrad. degree. This is how honestly some/ or many PhD students in the U.S. qualify to enter PhD programs.

 

[mpresic]

I went to grad school many years ago, but unless a lot has changed, I have to clarify some points raised in this forum. First, unless a lot has changed, the student does not enter the graduate program as a PhD candidate. The student becomes a doctoral candidate, usually after completing at least the core coursework, a qualifying exam, and (sometimes) a candidacy exam. Isn't this what term "candidacy" means?

In at least the Universities I attended, a student is not given the MS as a "consolation" prize, when (s)he fails the qualifier. The student still has to fulfill the requirements for the Master's. Many times the student's requirements includes writing and defending a Master's thesis. I know of a few cases, where acceptable coursework was sufficient without thesis, but it is not the case, that the student is awarded a Masters if (s)he fails the qualifier, and he walks out of the department, never to return.

Grad schools in the US especially selective ones are on the lookout to recruit students who express interest in their PhD program. This brings to mind a personal experience. My GPA was quite low when I first entered grad study. When I talked to faculty at a prospective university, I hid my intention to go for a doctoral degree, because I thought they would be more willing to accept me as a Master's candidate. After admission, I would have my foot in the door. I thought if I did well, I could always change my intention, with their support.

After talking to them (still before admission), I found they were really pushing me to prepare for the qualifiers (they even gave me two previous ones from years back), to start research as quickly as possible, and become a doctoral candidate. It certainly was not because I was a good prospect (I had a low GPA). They probably encouraged all their applicants in this direction. I changed my tune fast.

Sometimes, it is a mistake to try to come over to where you think is their side of the fence. My humility was almost responsible for talking myself out of being admitted to the graduate program.

 

[CrysPhys]

Again I don't understand this method, a PhD should be able to supervise either a BS or a MS thesis... so it's difficult for me to see how a BS student (especially from a US institute - known to have easy BS programs) could jump to that position... but OK...

advanced degree program = MSc... and yes, A or Bs should be eligible for a master program, a C should be disfavored.
I am not including PhD in that... a PhD is a researcher (doing their research), teacher (teaching up-to advanced classes) and guide (he can have a small group). An A BSc-degree is not enough to give eligibility to any of those... I still don't see how a BSc (even a major) could do that job. Except for if the PhD holds for 4 years (instead of 3) and the student is made to attend advanced classes + only research their topic for the 1st year (equivalent to doing a boosted-master degree).

Let's get this terminology straight, to ensure that we are talking about the same thing. A "PhD" is someone who has completed a PhD program and has been conferred a PhD degree. A "PhD student" or "PhD candidate" is someone who is working towards a PhD degree, has not yet completed the PhD program, and has not yet been conferred a PhD degree. Just to be clear, we are discussing a "PhD student" or "PhD candidate" ... a graduate student.

Once again, in the US:

(a) As of a 2014 AIP report (https://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/graduate/trendsphds-p-12.2.pdf), the average time to complete a PhD in physics in the US is 6.3 yrs (for students not having completed previous graduate study at a non-US university). This will come as a surprise to you, who considers 4 yrs to be an extended program. But the starting point is a BS, not a MS.

(b) At least one full year, and often two full years, of graduate level courses are required at the start of the PhD program.

(c) Some universities allow PhD students to join a research program their first year; other universities do not allow PhD students to join a research program until after they have passed their qualifying exams.

(d) In general, a PhD student does not supervise a BS thesis or a MS thesis, or run a group. He focusses on his own research for his dissertation. A PhD student is a researcher in training, not an experienced researcher (with exceptions, as usual). On occasion, advanced PhD students may be asked to help train new students (at various levels).

(e) It is quite common for a first-year PhD student (having just completed the BS himself) to function as a teaching assistant for lower-level undergrad physics courses. This is not necessarily a good thing; but in many universities, this is how many first-year PhD students are funded.

 

[CrysPhys]

I went to grad school many years ago, but unless a lot has changed, I have to clarify some points raised in this forum. First, unless a lot has changed, the student does not enter the graduate program as a PhD candidate. The student becomes a doctoral candidate, usually after completing at least the core coursework, a qualifying exam, and (sometimes) a candidacy exam. Isn't this what term "candidacy" means?

In at least the Universities I attended, a student is not given the MS as a "consolation" prize, when (s)he fails the qualifier. The student still has to fulfill the requirements for the Master's. Many times the student's requirements includes writing and defending a Master's thesis. I know of a few cases, where acceptable coursework was sufficient without thesis, but it is not the case, that the student is awarded a Masters if (s)he fails the qualifier, and he walks out of the department, never to return.

The key point is that in the US you can apply for a PhD program upon completion of a BS only. Yes, the PhD program has multiple phases, with multiple requirements and milestones to be met along the way (and these vary with the university, not consistent across the US). Whether a grad student enrolled in a PhD program becomes a PhD candidate only after passing a particular milestone is perhaps a semantic subtelty without significance.

In my grad school, one got a MS in physics upon completion of the first yr of grad courses (with satisfactory grades). The vast majority of the grad students did not take the quals until the fall of their second yr (a few outliers took them after their first semester); i.e., the vast majority of the grad students did not take their quals until after they had already been granted their MS. If you flunked the qual twice, you left with your MS. Colleagues from other universities told me of similar programs. I don't know whether AIP tracks MS requirements for US universities.

 

[ChrisVer]

I call a phd the person who is working on their phd, not someone who graduated successfuly.
6.3 years is a lot, true...
As for what a phd focuses on, it's not uncommon i guess to hear that a phd spends more than 60% not working at their project.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I call a phd the person who is working on their phd, not someone who graduated successfuly.

That is not the usual usage.

 

[CrysPhys]

I call a phd the person who is working on their phd, not someone who graduated successfuly.

So, what do you call someone who has been granted a PhD?

 

[Charles Link]

To address the OP @radical negative , I think it is important to strive for academic excellence and learn all that you can, and learn it as well as you possibly can. Whether you manage to achieve the M.S. level, or Ph.D. level, or even beyond that, knowing the subject matter well is really more important than the degree level you happen to achieve. In some ways, it's similar to the letter grade you achieve in a class=as much as the G.P.A. is important, it's more important to have an understanding of the subject matter. If you do, the grades and the G.P.A. will usually take care of itself. And if you work very hard in graduate school, the M.S. and/or Ph.D. degree may also follow, but the emphasis should be on learning. A successful graduate student really needs to be very hungry to learn.

 

[Locrian]

That is one way to look at it. Another way is: So if it takes 2 years to get, it hasn't actually cost you any time. The marginal expenditure is relatively small.

That's how I felt about it. Getting a PhD is a significant loss from a net-present-value of income perspective. Now, if the person gets enough satisfaction from the work they'll be doing afterwards, then it could absolutely be worth it, but you're starting from a loss and trying to make up for it.

But the masters, on the other hand, allows someone to study much of the same material, finish quickly and start at a higher pay (than with the BS). The risk is lower.

For me that (Masters) was the sweet spot, but I can totally see how others would see physics as an all or nothing enterprise.

 

[ChrisVer]

So, what do you call someone who has been granted a PhD?

either postdoc (if he or she is still around in academia) or Dr (the title you get by obtaining the phd)...