Is Classroom Behavior Influenced by a Teacher's Attitude?

[Stephenk53]

I plan on teaching high school education because I am crazy and enjoy learning. Anyway I noticed that in my school if a teacher is strict or rude the students tend to be extremely rude and act poorly out of spite. And teachers who are very kind and still tries to ensure all work is done, the students tend to be kind and some of the worst students often act like a straight A student. I am curious do you guys see this in classrooms?

 

[.Scott]

I don't think the classroom is any different than other organizations.
If the leader is purposeful and demonstrates it, then others will try to fit in.

A good example: 15 Boy Scouts were looking for their Engineering Merit badge. I was their counselor.
There were about 7 sessions - and there are some very specific requirements that each scout had to meet.

Many thought that 15 was about twice as many as would be advisable. Based on the comments of parents and other BSA leaders, the classes did not appear to be continuously "in control". In fact, they were. At all times, each scout was progressing toward the requirements of his badge - or waiting for my attention - or assisting another scout. In fact, there was never any "room" in the activity for significant diversion from our purpose.

As I recall, 12 of the 15 got their badge. The other three simply stopped showing up.

 

[symbolipoint]

Depends what is being taught
Depends why the kids are there

College Preparatory courses will have the more motivated and better-behaved students. The other-than and less-than college prep courses will have the other kinds of students (mostly) and they intend to be off-course and are harder to control.

 

[mathwonk]

rude = bad; strict and caring = good.

 

[haushofer]

See e.g. the rose of Leary, a model in which certain behaviour results in other behaviour.

 

[Windadct]

You can be strict and respected, but IMO this takes more discipline to remain consistent, caring and empathetic, vs being "fun" and anything goes, or harsh ( perceived as strict) and really be judgmental, prejudiced ( against students for past behavior ). Strict and Rude to me are two very different things, BUT, may will see rude behavior as strict.

Set clear guidelines and uphold them - BTW - you can be "strict" and Fun!

 

[Dr. Courtney]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962936022/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Habits. It's all about establishing good student work and behavioral habits early and maintaining them through the year.

 

[Dr.D]

Just yesterday there was an internet statement from a public school teacher in Rockwall, TX, who said that she is quiting teaching after this semester because of the bad attitudes of students, the complaints from parents who think their child is "special" and should not be expected to act right, and the total lack of support she got from her administration. I think she is onto something.

 

[bhobba]

[mod note: book review content deleted]

For me while as HS there wasn't much bad behavior in class. But what I personally noticed was if a teacher treated me with respect - by which I mean understood me as a person - it varies from person to person what that entails - then I was switched on in class. But if they dismissed me as a person I simply switched off. I can give many many examples - but two will suffice.

1. Right there in the physics textbook we had it said magnetic fields do not affect light. But I knew of a classic experiment by Faraday with light polarization that showed otherwise. I pointed that out and my wonderful physics teacher said polarized light is not normal light. I remember thinking - this isn't worth anything and switched off in class.

2. I was and have always been weak at English. Well my parents were called in. I wasn't failing or anything like that - I was getting what you US guys would cal C's - but in math and science A's. They discussed all sorts of strategies (plus some other really silly stuff like I needed to go to a special education school - but that is another story - I only found out that was going on later) and one was to involve me more in English class. We were studying the book Animal Farm and I was asked my view. I said maybe its about it will just continue to repeat with the horses taking the place of the pigs. The teacher simply waved his hand dismissing me. Again I simply switched off.

I didn't create trouble, but I can certainly imagine some who feel ignored as a person reacting that way. BTW this IMHO makes teaching one of the hardest if not the hardest job there is. If done right it has a very high burn out rate and I believe those that do the right thing and manage to stick it out need a lot more pay.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Dr. Courtney]

In the USA the educator is not respected by the parent - so why would the student?

That may be nearly universal in public high schools, but at the Air Force Academy, the instructor (even civilian faculty) have the authority of military officers, so a lack of respect becomes a problem very quickly for the cadets (students).

Respect from parents and students can be all over the map for instructors at private schools, but it more or less comes down to whether the admins back the teachers when issues arise regarding academic rigor and behavioral issues. The private school I've been volunteering at backs the teachers pretty well, so the path to respect is pretty much doing what you say you are going to do and providing reasonable opportunities to learning and fulfilling course requirements - and communicating with parents so no one is surprised.

 

[Windadct]

While that helps, the war on public ed for political and anti-tax purposes has eroded the respect of the profession in general. A bright, energetic, and motivated high school student in the US will NOT be advised to go into education, and when a student indicates and interest, the refrain "But, you could do so much better!" is now commonplace.

Only ~ 10% of the US Students attend private schools, and by nature of having to pay for this out of pocket, the parents are naturally more engaged. This is a key argument against vouchers IMO as it removes this connection and thus does not fix a major problem in the public system - parental involvement.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

"Doctor Faustus was a good man,
He whipped his scholars now and then,
When he whipped, he made then dance,
Out England into France
Out of France and into Spain,
And then he whipped them back again."

I doubt few students continue being rude when strict teachers have the authority to deliver corporal punishment. They still do this in my area.

 

[bhobba]

I doubt few students continue being rude when strict teachers have the authority to deliver corporal punishment. They still do this in my area.

Its outlawed here in public schools. But still allowed in private schools and some like the strap are brutal.

The interesting thing is parents are not allowed to use anything like the strap for punishing their children - restrictions are placed on that - it must be considered reasonable - now let me look up the precise definition of that - by precise I mean exactly what you can and can't do - I know the strap is out, but a light slap of the face is fine - between those extremes is a huge grey area. Yet they can sign a bit of paper that says a school can administer such. Very strange - or maybe it's one of those innumerable things that have never been tested in court. The stories I could tell about my experience and that one but it's way off topic.

Personally I believe the answer to discipline in school is very simple. For students that normal measures will not work you have a very special school. It has a police station right in the middle of the school and security cameras everywhere. For these students school starts at 7 and ends at 5 - the extra 4 hours is spent going to life lessons conducted by the police. Don't turn up or play hooky - the police find you - there is no escape. Now can police legally use force to make children comply - that is much clearer - it usually is 'the amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject'. No worries about legality there and if that doesn't make a student wake up I am not sure what will. Not that I think the current education system in most countries is good for all or even most students - but that is another story.

Thanks
Bill

 

[russ_watters]

Mod note: several posts about a book review have been deleted as an unnecessary OT diversion. When buying a book on a recommendation it is always a good idea to check reviews. Caveat emptor always applies. No need to dive deep into that here.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

You know, it wasn't long ago that superiors got away with really smacking their students around. They were allowed to get rough with students, especially verbally (which would be considered abusive now). So, the definition of strict means something different to the older people you are asking. Many of the old scholars you encounter probably had it hard.

A few years ago there was a university professor in my state that almost got away with spanking one of his female students for poor grades. Because legally, they still can, in my state.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Not a fan of corporal punishment by schools, even though it remains legal in most of the south.

I think of motivation in terms of the carrot and the stick and try to have plenty of carrot before the stick comes into play:

Carrot:
The joy of learning
The usefulness of learning
Earning potential - scholarships in the short term
Earning potential - employment in the long term
Fun - a hands on approach - lots of labs and activities matched to student disposition and preferences
Privileges connected to spotless behavior and good grades - athletics, driving to school, etc.
Letter of recommendation
Good grades
Verbal praise
Positive note home to parents

Stick:
Verbal correction/warning
Contact parents
Contact coaches/team rep
Bad grades
Office Referral
Detention
Athletic ineligibility
Suspension
Expulsion

An important point is that it helps if behavioral consequences are available for failure to complete academic work. The Air Force Academy takes the approach that a failure to comply with instructors' academic assignments is equivalent to failing to comply with any other military directive (uniform violations, other duties). I've also seen this approach succeed in private high schools. Waiting until report cards until parents see the bad grades can be too long a cycle time, and parents often do not take teacher contact seriously. But there is something about a notice of detention that gets the attention quickly both of parents and students in cases of repeated failure to complete assignments. It communicates a seriousness of the matter in a way that is very hard to do otherwise when there is enough time remaining to salvage the grade in the course for the semester.

Athleteic ineligibility also sends a strong message that finally gets through. Some private high schools have shorter time scales (1 to 3 weeks) on which athletes can be made to sit out on the basis of bad grades. There are cases where teachers and coaches skirt the design and intent of these systems, but when everyone supports the intent, having a system in place that sits athletes based on the past 1-3 weeks of academic work can get their attention (and their parents' attention) when there is still time for improvement in a given semester.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

Not a fan of corporal punishment by schools, even though it remains legal in most of the south.

I think of motivation in terms of the carrot and the stick and try to have plenty of carrot before the stick comes into play:

Carrot:
The joy of learning
The usefulness of learning
Earning potential - scholarships in the short term
Earning potential - employment in the long term
Fun - a hands on approach - lots of labs and activities matched to student disposition and preferences
Privileges connected to spotless behavior and good grades - athletics, driving to school, etc.
Letter of recommendation
Good grades
Verbal praise
Positive note home to parents

Stick:
Verbal correction/warning
Contact parents
Contact coaches/team rep
Bad grades
Office Referral
Detention
Athletic ineligibility
Suspension
Expulsion

An important point is that it helps if behavioral consequences are available for failure to complete academic work. The Air Force Academy takes the approach that a failure to comply with instructors' academic assignments is equivalent to failing to comply with any other military directive (uniform violations, other duties). I've also seen this approach succeed in private high schools. Waiting until report cards until parents see the bad grades can be too long a cycle time, and parents often do not take teacher contact seriously. But there is something about a notice of detention that gets the attention quickly both of parents and students in cases of repeated failure to complete assignments. It communicates a seriousness of the matter in a way that is very hard to do otherwise when there is enough time remaining to salvage the grade in the course for the semester.

Athleteic ineligibility also sends a strong message that finally gets through. Some private high schools have shorter time scales (1 to 3 weeks) on which athletes can be made to sit out on the basis of bad grades. There are cases where teachers and coaches skirt the design and intent of these systems, but when everyone supports the intent, having a system in place that sits athletes based on the past 1-3 weeks of academic work can get their attention (and their parents' attention) when there is still time for improvement in a given semester.

My point was that all the time and energy you refer to in correcting a student, quite a but, used to be corrected with a smack upside the head. What now takes hours to correct, used to get fixed within seconds, in the moment.

Not that corporal punishment is right. Just that it was pretty effective back then...

 

[Dr. Courtney]

My point was that all the time and energy you refer to in correcting a student, quite a but, used to be corrected with a smack upside the head. What now takes hours to correct, used to get fixed within seconds, in the moment.

Not that corporal punishment is right. Just that it was pretty effective back then...

I recall being spanked by my 4th grade math teacher for not doing my homework (and lying about it) and by my elementary schoo principal for fighting on the playground. I deserved these spankings, and I benefitted from them. But in a much more litigous society where parents often go ballistic about a failing grade, I'm pretty confident I'd want to avoid the legal quagmire of spanking a student. Even if it is legal (not a criminal offense), I'm personally unwilling to risk a civil lawsuit or other legal nonsense.

An email home to parents, a discussion with a coach, an office referral, or a detention notice takes 1-5 minutes. Proctoring a detention takes an hour when the school requires the issuing teacher to do it. But one can usually plan for all the detentions for a week to be served on the same day, so the net time expended is much less than an hour per student infraction. I tend to take care cultivating relationships with key players in the athletic department so that when I report a problem, the proper coach brings pressure to bear quickly to remedy the problem. Coaches have a number of motivational tools at their disposal that are very helpful. (Parents do also, but with so many broken homes and other issues, most parents are working too hard to be their children's friends so they tend to take the children's side in academic or behavioral issues with a teacher.) Still, my experience is that parental support improves issues often enough that it is worth a short investment of time to send an email or note home. A detention gets just about everyone's attention. Parents finally take the issue seriously. Coaches notice the student is an hour late for practice. In addition to the hour after school, most students then face feedback from parents and/or coaches. And I've never known (or heard of) a teacher getting negative legal or employment actions related to the above approaches.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

Yeah, I recall getting it a few times.

My 5th grade math-science teacher had this "aerodynamic" wooden paddle. He would delight in holding it up to the classroom while describing why he drilled holes into it and wrapped it in duct tape, making a big show of it every now-and-then...

He finally got tired of me demanding that he show me evidence to back up his lessons. It hurt my feelings more than anything. I thought I was his favorite. We are talking about strict and nice teachers, but he was actually a very nice one and not overly strict. People respect consequences. Teachers should be able to hand them out in order to maintain respect.

 

[Stephenk53]

For me I abhor corporeal punishment due to knowing a lot of people who were abused (much of which would be considered abuse no matter where you are). Personally I think it's much better to just reward people when they do good and take stuff away when they are bad, obviously a teacher can't take away say video game privileges but I think parents should do that when a teacher reports something. One major issue is parents tend to either not care about a kids grades or tend to think their kid could never get a bad grade thus they will get angry at the teacher instead. My mom did this and because of it I sometimes do not report my bad grades because I do not want my teacher to get fired over my mistake.

 

[Windadct]

Many issues here - but regarding corporal punishment, it is dolled out buy higher functioning people from a perspective that this would motivate me to behave, but in realty it is typically being applied to people that do not function on that same level, and ultimately pushes them out of the system, from a disruption standpoint, OK. Now the classroom is settled but the individual cost is too high. Different people learn and are motivated in different ways - and per Pareto type sorting, 80% of the students, require 20% of the effort, and visa-versa.

As far as assumptions about education, the US is really in a bad way, parents push their kids hard on too many things and neglect the emphasis academics. All year sports, travel for dance, hockey, baseball, etc. all take priority. My wife is a teacher n NJ and pretty much every year has one student being taken out of school on a regular basis to go to New York to model or to audition... 4th grade!

Then my brother a college prof has students that show up crying after getting a B or a C in bio... "b-b-but I got a 5 on the AP exam..." AP in the US is being taught to pass a test, to get out of college classes... it is not about learning the subject material, it is about getting the paper.

By and large US culture does not value education - grades that lead to a degree that lead to a paycheck.

 

[Stephenk53]

Many issues here - but regarding corporal punishment, it is dolled out buy higher functioning people from a perspective that this would motivate me to behave, but in realty it is typically being applied to people that do not function on that same level, and ultimately pushes them out of the system, from a disruption standpoint, OK. Now the classroom is settled but the individual cost is too high. Different people learn and are motivated in different ways - and per Pareto type sorting, 80% of the students, require 20% of the effort, and visa-versa.

As far as assumptions about education, the US is really in a bad way, parents push their kids hard on too many things and neglect the emphasis academics. All year sports, travel for dance, hockey, baseball, etc. all take priority. My wife is a teacher n NJ and pretty much every year has one student being taken out of school on a regular basis to go to New York to model or to audition... 4th grade!

Then my brother a college prof has students that show up crying after getting a B or a C in bio... "b-b-but I got a 5 on the AP exam..." AP in the US is being taught to pass a test, to get out of college classes... it is not about learning the subject material, it is about getting the paper.

By and large US culture does not value education - grades that lead to a degree that lead to a paycheck.

I agree that the us tends to focus on things other than academics, in fact my robotics team was forced out of my school due to inabity to pay 200 dollars per students and 200 dollars per meet, so the team moved to a liberal arts school who (unlike what you'd expect) supports academics and STEM much more. Money is still tight but we at least can exist and luckily the entire liberal arts school loves us

 

[mathwonk]

@Freyja, are parents allowed to punch out rude teachers in your state? and what about students who are larger than teachers? I recall some cogent parenting advice from a conservative right wing psychologist once about disciplining children by squeezing that muscle above their shoulders, "in general, if you can't reach it, don't squeze it".

 

[bhobba]

@Freyja and what about students who are larger than teachers?

And what of those over 18? A lawyer just might argue its assault and I don't think a Judge would disagree.

IMHO for unruly students the police are really the only answer. They are the ones legally empowered in our society to use, only when necessary mind you and under legal restrictions, force. It must be that way in a civilized society.

As I said some private schools here in Aus have as part of their disciplinary action the use of a rather brutal implement called the strap - I suspect it's legality is open to challenge.

When my father went to a private boarding school they used corporal punishment. Dad always said it was the cane and not struck that hard - it hurt a bit - but not much. The real punishment was it was done at a school assembly and the shame was much worse than the actual punishment. Good school proactive practices IMHO makes such largely unnecessary and when actually employed is more like the light slap from a parent.

But even that IMHO should not be used - the police are the proper people to use, if necessary, force.

Yhanks
Bill

 

[OCR]

Yhanks
Bill

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