Is Marxist socialism a viable economic/political theory

[master_coda]

Rational self-interest just means that a person actually knows what she wants. The only people excluded here would be people with severe mental illnesses and children. They are excluded from the capitalist model, but anyone else can be fit in, even if you find their behavior "irrational." Smith does not use the term the same way you do.

I think rational self-interest requires not just that a person knows what they want, but that they act rationally to acquire what they want.

 

[loseyourname]

I think rational self-interest requires not just that a person knows what they want, but that they act rationally to acquire what they want.

Smith never stipulates that individuals behave in a logical manner, only that they act in a way that they believe will lead to the acquisition of that which they desire. In this way, the whole ball of wax of human behavior is subject to market forces, regardless of how sensible the behavior. This really is the genius of capitalism. It is the only system that encourages liberty, that encourages humans to just be human. Every other system requires the subjugation of the individual to some extent, or at least that humans behave in a manner that is not necessarily natural to them.

 

[master_coda]

Smith never stipulates that individuals behave in a logical manner, only that they act in a way that they believe will lead to the acquisition of that which they desire. In this way, the whole ball of wax of human behavior is subject to market forces, regardless of how sensible the behavior. This really is the genius of capitalism. It is the only system that encourages liberty, that encourages humans to just be human. Every other system requires the subjugation of the individual to some extent, or at least that humans behave in a manner that is not necessarily natural to them.

Market forces operate under the assumption that people will act in their own best interests. If people don't act rationally to serve their interests then this can sabotage the efficiency of the marketplace.

 

[the number 42]

Market forces operate under the assumption that people will act in their own best interests. If people don't act rationally to serve their interests then this can sabotage the efficiency of the marketplace.

I think you need to qualify that by saying: Market forces operate under the assumption that people will act in their own best short-term interests at the expense of their harder-to-conceptualise long-term interests, as well as the interests of their neighbours.

 

[loseyourname]

Market forces operate under the assumption that people will act in their own best interests. If people don't act rationally to serve their interests then this can sabotage the efficiency of the marketplace.

Aberrations aren't of concern. As long as all but a statistically insignificant number of humans are behaving in such a manner so as to acquire that which they believe they desire, the system works.

 

[master_coda]

Aberrations aren't of concern. As long as all but a statistically insignificant number of humans are behaving in such a manner so as to acquire that which they believe they desire, the system works.

This isn't true; introducing minor aberrations into the assumptions required by a free market can produce very different outcomes. Which is one of the reasons the system doesn't always work. Dismissing irrational people as a minor aberration that can't affect the economy is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[wasteofo2]

Russ - I haven't kept up with this thread, so I'm sorry if this has been adressed before, but I wonder: do you believe that America is currently Socialist? In my view, we're in a stage of Socialism, and have been for quite some time, and it seems to have worked out pretty well for us.

I still think Communism is ridiculous, but ideas like taxing the rich and helping out poor people, having worker's unions so that the workers control their own working conditions and essentially work for themselves, having a minimum wage and other laws to prohibit corporations from abusing their workers, having social security etc. are all things that are intrinsic to American life, and are all things that are essentially ideas straight out of The Communist Manifesto.

 

[loseyourname]

This isn't true; introducing minor aberrations into the assumptions required by a free market can produce very different outcomes. Which is one of the reasons the system doesn't always work. Dismissing irrational people as a minor aberration that can't affect the economy is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Well, that's a nice bald assertion. Give me an example of an aberration and I'll do my best (I don't pay much attention to the politics forum) to explain how the market can deal with it. In fact, assuming you're arguing for socialism, explain to me how socialism can better deal with it. If you're arguing for some non-socialistic system x, then tell me how system x better deals with it.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

Though it is interesting to note, Marxist Communism has never actually been tried. In his theory, full industrialization would have taken place, and Capitalism would have set up the infrastructure already. Only once Capitalism had been sucessful would Communism take over, as Communism couldn't build the same infrastructure etc. that capitalism could. Though I guess he thought Communism could keep improving it, you just needed Capitalism for that first huge step getting your country industrialized. You'd need a country like Japan or America, which already was a sucessful Capitalist country, to really try Communism the way Marx wanted it. Though it would have just degraded into a particularly powerful dictatorship anyway.

The Israeli Kibutzs' are an example I think of something very close to pure communism. Communism is basically too extreme to work on a large scale indefinitely, but the socialist derivatives appeal to the populist Federalism in the US, and that's kind of what government is all about -- representing broad interests such as public health, safety & defence. And crushing Nazi skulls.