sixpack
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There would not be philosophy if it were not for philosophers?
The discussion revolves around the nature of philosophy and its relationship with philosophers, exploring the concept of metaphilosophy and its implications for traditional philosophical boundaries. Participants engage with questions about the essence of philosophy, its historical context, and its role in knowledge building across various disciplines.
Participants express differing views on the nature of philosophy and its relationship with empirical science, with no consensus reached on the definitions or implications of metaphilosophy. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity and utility of the term "meta-level" in philosophical discourse.
Limitations in the discussion include varying interpretations of philosophical terms, the dependence on personal definitions, and unresolved questions about the historical context of philosophy's relationship with science.
sixpack said:There would not be philosophy if it were not for philosophers?
sixpack said:There would not be philosophy if it were not for philosophers?
Pythagorean said:well, that's your philosophy.
Math Is Hard said:but couldn't test or directly observe (or hadn't yet tested or observed), and there has been philosophy.
sixpack said:There would not be philosophy if it were not for philosophers?
apeiron said:Philosophy is really only about a meta-level of modelling. Before you do real work, it is useful to scope out the terrain. So viewed that way, philosophy is a natural part of all knowledge building disciplines. Even engineers and architects wax philosophical.
Science is modelling tied to particular observations. Philosophy is meta-modelling tied to meta-observations - or broad scale generalisations that seem to be true of the world.
The cultural relationship between meta-modelling and modelling was healthy in ancient greece and again during the renaissance/enlightenment. But it has gone off since. Good philosophy is mainly to be found within science departments these days. (Of couse, some scientists are spectacular bad at it too).
vectorcube said:You really need to be more clear. "meta-level" is not clear.
I have become familiar with your psychological difficulty in looking up words you don't know, but should know.
The OED cites uses of the meta- prefix as "beyond, about" (such as meta-economics and meta-philosophy) going back to 1917. However, these formations are directly parallel to the original "metaphysics" and "metaphysical", that is, as a prefix to general nouns (fields of study) or adjectives. Going by the OED citations, it began to be used with specific nouns in connection with mathematical logic sometime before 1929. (In 1920 David Hilbert proposed a research project in what was called "metamathematics.")
A notable early citation is Quine's 1937 use of the word "metatheorem", where meta- clearly has the modern meaning of "an X about X". (Note that earlier uses of "meta-economics" and even "metaphysics" do not have this doubled conceptual structure, they are about or beyond X but they do not themselves constitute an X). Note also that this modern meaning allows for self-reference, since if something is about the category to which it belongs, it can be about itself; it is therefore no coincidence that we find Quine, a mathematician interested in self-reference, using it.
Douglas Hofstadter, in his 1979 book Gödel, Escher, Bach (and in the sequel, Metamagical Themas), popularized this meaning of the term. This book, which deals extensively with self-reference and touches on Quine and his work, was influential in many computer-related subcultures, and is probably largely responsible for the popularity of the prefix, for its use as a solo term, and for the many recent coinages which use it. Hofstadter uses the meta as a stand-alone word, both as an adjective and as a directional preposition ("going meta", a term he coins for the old rhetorical trick of taking a debate or analysis to another level of abstraction, as in "This debate isn't going anywhere."). This book is also probably responsible for the direct association of "meta" with self-reference, as opposed to just abstraction. The sentence "This sentence contains thirty-six letters," and the sentence it is embedded in, are examples of sentences that reference themselves in this way.
vectorcube said:The prefix "meta" also means "the study of". So, to say " metaphilosophy" is the study of " the study of the nature of philosophy". When you write about "meta-level". I know instantly that it is not part of analytic philosophy, mathematics, or linquistic. It is probable a make up word from you.