Is R/kZ under multiplication a field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether the quotient structure ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}## can be considered a field under a multiplication induced from ##\mathbb{R}##. Participants explore the properties of this structure, including addition and multiplication, and the conditions necessary for it to qualify as a field.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}## forms a field under the proposed multiplication, noting the results of specific multiplications and expressing skepticism despite a professor's assertion.
  • Another participant points out issues with the proposed multiplication, demonstrating that it leads to inconsistencies when using different representatives of the same coset.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of ensuring operations are well-defined when quotienting out by a set, suggesting that testing examples can reveal problems.
  • Further clarification is provided that a quotient structure inherits multiplication from the original ring only if the subgroup is an ideal, implying that the lack of ideal status for ##k\mathbb{Z}## may prevent ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}## from being a ring, let alone a field.
  • Participants express a desire for a general procedure to determine if a commutative ring is a field, indicating a broader interest in the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the multiplication proposed has issues and that the structure may not be a field. However, there is no consensus on a definitive conclusion regarding the field status of ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}##, as the discussion remains exploratory and unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need for clarity on the definitions and properties of ideals and rings, particularly in the context of quotient structures. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of the subgroup not being an ideal.

Mandelbroth
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I'm trying to figure out if ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}## would form a field if we allowed for an "induced" multiplication from ##\mathbb{R}##, with ##r\in\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}## identified with ##r+k\in\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}##. So, if we wanted to multiply ##3\in\mathbb{R}/4\mathbb{Z}## by ##\frac{1}{2}\in\mathbb{R}/4\mathbb{Z}##, we'd get 3/2, but if we wanted to multiply ##3\in\mathbb{R}/4\mathbb{Z}## and ##2\in\mathbb{R}/4\mathbb{Z}##, we'd get 6-4=2. I'm not convinced that this is a field, despite what my professor told me in a really off-topic discussion from polar coordinates.

Clearly, it forms an abelian group under addition. It also has a commutative, associative, and distributive multiplication law with an identity. Now I just need to show that it has an inverse for every nonzero element. I tried to prove this by proving that there isn't a nontrivial proper ideal in ##\mathbb{R}/k\mathbb{Z}##, but that isn't getting me anywhere.

Rather than help me with just this specific problem, though, I'd also like to know if there is a general algorithm/procedure/etc. for showing that a commutative ring is a field.

Any help is much appreciated. Thank you.
 
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Your multiplication has some problems here. Notice that 0+4Z = (0+4Z)(1/2+4Z) = (4+4Z)(1/2+4Z) = 2+4Z using your rule.
 
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jgens said:
Your multiplication has some problems here. Notice that 0+4Z = (0+4Z)(1/2+4Z) = (4+4Z)(1/2+4Z) = 2+4Z using your rule.
Aha! There we go. Thank you. :biggrin:

Do you have any idea how I could notice things like that in the future?
 
Mandelbroth said:
Do you have any idea how I could notice things like that in the future?

Anytime you are quotienting out by a set (in this case kZ) the first question should be "are my operations still well-defined?" And until you prove that they are there's no point in proceeding. And by 'well-defined' we always mean what happens if I pick different representatives of the same co-set, so if you tried some examples you would quickly find the problem here.
 
Mandelbroth said:
Do you have any idea how I could notice things like that in the future?

Sure. If you have a ring R and a subgroup I then generally R/I inherits multiplication from R only when I is an ideal. So basically whenever you quotient out by something that is not an ideal, you should not expect to end up with a ring.
 
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jgens said:
Sure. If you have a ring R and a subgroup I then generally R/I inherits multiplication from R only when I is an ideal. So basically whenever you quotient out by something that is not an ideal, you should not expect to end up with a ring.
I probably should have thought of that. I just wasn't thinking of ##\mathbb{R}## alone in terms of rings. :redface:

Thank you. You've been very helpful and patient.
 

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