News Is Re-Electing Bush a Mistake Given His Presidential Record?

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AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around a critical evaluation of a president's actions during their tenure, highlighting numerous controversial decisions and outcomes. Key points include military interventions in two countries, significant economic downturns marked by record deficits and bankruptcies, and a series of unprecedented actions such as executing a federal prisoner and dissolving international treaties. The president is also criticized for a lack of transparency, the appointment of wealthy cabinet members, and a perceived failure to uphold civil liberties and international agreements. The conversation reflects deep divisions in public opinion, with some participants defending the president's actions as necessary for national security, while others express outrage over the implications for democracy and global relations. The thread illustrates a broader debate about accountability and the legacy of leadership in times of crisis.
  • #51
A chemical attack on Israel probably would have resulted in the US and Israel both going into Iraq and deposing Saddam.

Oh wow! Israel is going to help! Oh wow! The Israelis are coming, run, run!

One of the reasons (through my biased, and only my biased opinion) that the US is in this war is because they support Israel. They should've stayed out of the middle east, but they decided to take Israel's side. That'll tend to piss-off the surrounding Muslim nations.
 
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  • #52
russ_watters said:
I must admit to not having read the whole thread before. This post is wonderful: Translation: 'I have no evidence, therefore the evidence must have been suppressed.' Uh huh. Is that how burden-of-proof works, Ivan? Haven't we had this discussion before?

Ivan: you are an axe murderer. Anything you say to try to refute that and any evidence you show is evidence that you are good at hiding/faking evidence. Prove me wrong. As always. Isn't that tautological? That's why I don't watch those shows any more.

:smile:

I will grant you that some of the language is hyped, but Russ, you would have me prove a negative? I'm surprised at your flawed logic.

Lets make it easy. Show me the sealed records from Bush's tour as Governer...or don't they keep gubuantorial records any more?
 
  • #53
Ivan Seeking said:
I will grant you that some of the language is hyped, but Russ, you would have me prove a negative? I'm surprised at your flawed logic.
:confused: That's a mirror I'm showing you Ivan. Some of those assertions in your opening post are positive, some are negative. The point is you are trying to shift the burden-of-proof. For example:
Lets make it easy. Show me the sealed records from Bush's tour as Governer...or don't they keep gubuantorial records any more?
Well you tell me - are there records and if so, what do they say? If you have no evidence, say you have no evidence but you think there might be some somewhere that could be evidence of impropriety (you hope). But excuse me if I don't leap on the bandwagon with such a weak assertion.
 
  • #54
Dissident Dan said:
...it would have been ridiculous, as well as being political suicide, not to fund it.
Yes, God knows, the worst thing any politician - especially a Democrat - can do is stand up for what they believe.

Could you explain to me why it would be political suicide? Many Democrats, Kerry included, argued against it, then voted for it, then claimed they were duped into voting for it (nevermind what that says about their gullibility, nor the fact that they argued against it before voting for it). Kerry's taking a lot of flak for that. In fact, this seemingly predominantly Democratic trait is one of the reasons I'm a Republican.
 
  • #55
russ_watters said:
:confused: That's a mirror I'm showing you Ivan. Some of those assertions in your opening post are positive, some are negative. The point is you are trying to shift the burden-of-proof. For example: Well you tell me - are there records and if so, what do they say? If you have no evidence, say you have no evidence but you think there might be some somewhere that could be evidence of impropriety (you hope). But excuse me if I don't leap on the bandwagon with such a weak assertion.

Well, you seem to say show me the records that we can't get and I'll believe it. Okay, in order to do justice to the issue I will dig up some specific information about all of this.

I am a little surprised at your objection. I thought this was all well known but maybe not so.
 
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  • #56
russ_watters said:
Yes, God knows, the worst thing any politician - especially a Democrat - can do is stand up for what they believe.

Could you explain to me why it would be political suicide? Many Democrats, Kerry included, argued against it, then voted for it, then claimed they were duped into voting for it (nevermind what that says about their gullibility, nor the fact that they argued against it before voting for it). Kerry's taking a lot of flak for that. In fact, this seemingly predominantly Democratic trait is one of the reasons I'm a Republican.

We are not talking about the authorization for the war. We are talking about the $87 billion. He was never against funding the troops. He voted for a proposal to pay for it by rescinding bush tax cuts for the wealthy. When that failed, he cast a "protest" vote, knowing full well that the bill would pass, against the final measure to allocate $87 billion.
 
  • #57
russ_watters said:
Isn't that tautological? That's why I don't watch those shows any more.

I don't think so. For example, we might see that Bush's support is very soft, and at the last minute a lot of Y2K Bush voters will switch and vote for Kerry. This happened with Carter and Reagan. Almost no one saw the landslide coming, as I remember. The point today is that the established support in both camps is thought to be firm. Those who are declared as undecided are the only game left for either side to win.
 
  • #58
A History of Refusing to Release Documents

...But now, facing far more serious allegations than fundraising irregularities, the President has categorically refused to release critical documents in a host of areas.

Many examples are given.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=116445


More to come. :wink:
 
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  • #59
What George Bush and Rick Perry don't want you to know

Closing Open Records

...The last time Bush and Perry hooked up in an attempt to defeat the Texas Public Information Act was two years ago, when the new governor tried to help the new president keep his state papers out of the hands of journalists and scholars. Now the two leaders are at it again, threatening to create an important exception to disclosure of the same Bush records and thereby restricting the public's right to know...

...In the latest dispute over the Bush papers, however, the president is winning on points. This round began in August, following the publication of an article tracking Gov. Bush's decision-making process that had led to the execution of 151 men and two women during his six-year tenure in Austin. [continued]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-11-07/pols_feature.html


But Mr. Bush's Texas records were moved back to state custody after a ruling from the attorney general

http://www.gop.com/news/read.aspx?ID=3442
 
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  • #60
100 Reasons to choose from

The Top Ten reasons given:

1. Failing to build a real international coalition prior to the Iraq invasion, forcing the US to shoulder the full cost and consequences of the war.

2. Approving the demobilization of the Iraqi Army in May, 2003 – bypassing the Joint Chiefs of Staff and reversing an earlier position, the President left hundreds of thousands of armed Iraqis disgruntled and unemployed, contributing significantly to the massive security problems American troops have faced during occupation.

3. Not equipping troops in Iraq with adequate body armor or armored HUMVEES.

4. Ignoring the advice Gen. Eric Shinseki regarding the need for more troops in Iraq – now Bush is belatedly adding troops, having allowed the security situation to deteriorate in exactly the way Shinseki said it would if there were not enough troops.

5. Ignoring plans drawn up by the Army War College and other war-planning agencies, which predicted most of the worst security and infrastructure problems America faced in the early days of the Iraq occupation.

6. Making a case for war which ignored intelligence that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

7. Deriding "nation-building" during the 2000 debates, then engaging American troops in one of the most explicit instances of nation building in American history.

8. Predicting along with others in his administration that US troops would be greeted as liberators in Iraq.

9. Predicting Iraq would pay for its own reconstruction.

10. Wildly underestimating the cost of the war.[90 more reasons follow]

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=64326
 
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  • #61
JohnDubYa said:
Okay, here goes:

That's better than attacking and not taking over two countries. Americans don't consider military victories a bad thing.

As an American, I consider needless deaths during war a "bad thing."--regardless of who comes out on top.





JohnDubYa said:
Bush is taking his hits for the economy, but no President is ever totally responsible
...unless he happens to be a Democrat, like Jimmy Carter
 
  • #62
JohnDubYa said:
By the way, the word "Americans" is capitalized.

Relax. The guy is from Canada, and he mispelled and failed to capitalize the word "Canadian" too.
 
  • #63
Elizabeth1405 said:
As an American, I consider needless deaths during war a "bad thing."--regardless of who comes out on top.

And what's needless? Was the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo needless? Was the dropping of the A-bomb needless? Was General Sherman's total destruction of the cities of Atlanta and Savannah needless?
 
  • #64
There is a more subtle but much more sinister reason not to vote for Bush.

Voting for Bush means voting for the status quo dismal intelligence that allows Al Queda to thrive.


What remains inexplicable to me is why the Bush administration would believe that the attacks did not prove the need for an urgent overhaul of U.S. intelligence, but that business as usual would suffice? Whatever one thinks of Bush on other subjects, this decision remains unexplained and undefended.

Bush, in his most inexplicable action as president, has made no substantial changes in either the structure of the intelligence community or in its personnel...yet the pro Bush advocates wants us to believe by voting for him, we are voting for a stronger antiterrorism defensive front.

Let me explain:


The CIA, the NSA and the vast apparatus of the U.S. intelligence community were created in the late 1940s with one purpose: to combat the Soviet Union.

The end of the Cold War should have led to a rethinking of both mission and organization. There has been some the former, but hardly any of the latter



Soviet intelligence, and thus ours, made certain fundamental assumptions about how intelligence operations should be carried out:

1. The primary purpose of soviet or american intelligence was to penetrate the decision-making layers of opponent states and to transmit information to a central authority. The primary means for achieving this was to plant agents inside the CIA of KGB; the secondary means was technical intelligence.


2. The secondary purpose of our countries' intelligence agencey was to use these agents to obscure intelligence activities . In other words, agents were also were also used to falsify intelligence.

We became much more heavily dependent on technical means of intelligence-gathering than did the Soviets. Where the Soviets would try to recruit well-placed Americans to extract information, we would try to tap into Soviet systems of communication to gather the same information. The Soviets were obsessed with protecting their assets, we with protecting our technical capabilities.


For the United States, the terrorist groups of the 1970s and 1980s were not seen as independent actors, but as entities designed or at least guided by the KGB toward psychological and political ends. On the whole, this was not a bad way to view the world. The KGB used these groups -- particularly Palestinian groups -- to create political environments that were conducive to Soviet ends. The Soviets maintained a program designed to seduce, manipulate and manage the leadership of these terrorist groups. The United States understood that the best way to defeat these groups was by disrupting their relations with the Soviets. Both sides were quite realistic for a while..

By the time of Desert Storm, the Soviets were no longer key enablers of terrorism. The problem is that our CIA has lost the prism through which it viewed organizations that were using terrorism as a weapon. To be more precise, where the United States previously had viewed the Arab world through the prism of the CIA-KGB competition, the end of the rivalry did not bring with it a new prism. The CIA knew that the Soviets were no longer managing the situation, but they did not develop a new way of thinking about that situation.



Al Qaeda has been designed to be different from predecessor groups that used terrorism.

First, there is no dependency on a single intelligence agency. Al Qaeda used relations with Pakistani and Saudi intelligence, among others, but did not depend on them. Second, the group understood how the Soviets and Americans had used intelligence during the Cold War, and created an organization that was not easily penetrated by either human or technical means. They don't run cables that submarines could tap into or chatter on car phones, so the NSA has limited opportunities to intercept.


The CIA, institutionally, does not seem to have the frame of reference for al Qaeda. This agency was organized for penetrating the upper circles and lines of communication of a nation-state or a state-sponsored group. It was built to deal with the KGB and its creations.

What had been built to be congruent with Soviet intelligence is now left standing alone, congruent with nothing.



He believes profoundly and completely that the same organizational structure and people that took down the KGB would eventually take down al Qaeda -- no wholesale changes required. It is understandable that people who had won once would think that they could win again using the same tools. It is inexplicable that the president and his advisers would believe them. Simple common sense should tell U.S. leaders that it is simply fantastic to believe that a force built to defeat the Soviet Union can serve to defeat al Qaeda.

However, I'm not sure Kerry is going to make this a priority agenda either. At least, not a voting agenda.
 
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  • #65
loseyourname said:
And what's needless? Was the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo needless? Was the dropping of the A-bomb needless? Was General Sherman's total destruction of the cities of Atlanta and Savannah needless?

You may want to go back and read my original post. I'm saying the DEATHS of so many civilians is needless, not necessarily the acts that lead up to these deaths. There were "needless" deaths in all the situations your mention--civilians dying as a result of war is, in my opinion, needless. More appropriately, I consider the death of nearly 1,000 American soldiers in Iraq and the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians by foreign invaders to their country to be needless. And I think "needless" is a good way to describe all of the Vietnam war.
 
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  • #66
Elizabeth1405 said:
You may want to go back and read my original post. I'm saying the DEATHS of so many civilians is needless, not necessarily the acts that lead up to these deaths. There were "needless" deaths in all the situations your mention--civilians dying as a result of war is, in my opinion, needless. More appropriately, I consider the death of nearly 1,000 American soldiers in Iraq and the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians by foreign invaders to their country to be needless. And I think "needless" is a good way to describe all of the Vietnam war.

Well then, if you think civilians dying as a result of war is needless, and needless deaths is a valid reason for opposing a war, then you would have opposed every war the US has been involved in since the Civil War. Heck, in the other examples I used, we intentionally targeted and killed civilians. In a war like the one we're involved in today, and in Vietnam, civilians were killed because the enemy disguises itself as civilians and makes it difficult to tell who's a threat and who is not a threat. I would think the intentional targeting of civilians would be more objectionable. I'm guessing you nonetheless object to this current war more than you would to WWII or the Civil War, so for the sake of consistent reasoning, you must have another reason - not civilian deaths.
 
  • #67
loseyourname said:
In a war like the one we're involved in today, and in Vietnam, civilians were killed because the enemy disguises itself as civilians and makes it difficult to tell who's a threat and who is not a threat.

Did you ever hear of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam? None of those civilians were mistaken for anything than what they were--poor people in a small village.The soldiers killed them because they were easy targets, and they were eventually prosecuted for it. Vietnam was a lose-lose situation--the soldiers lost, and their victims lost. It was a mistake, and apparently nobody has learned anything from that. I oppose ALL war. I don't see how bombing other people to smithereens (whether "intentional" or not) is an acceptable solution to anything. I know a very sweet gentleman who is a WWII veteran. He is very conservative politically, yet is against the death penalty. Why? He admits to killing hundreds of Germans in WWII. He doesn't regret killing them, because that's what he had to do at the time for himself and his country. He is against the death penalty not because of what it does to the person being executed, but what it does to us. He knows what effect killing will have on the psyche of someone, regardless of whether it is justified. Nobody "wins" from war. That's why I don't understand the gung-ho attitude of people in this country to the war in Iraq. How did killing and bombing become something to cheer and brag about?
 
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  • #68
How did killing and bombing become something to cheer and brag about?

Elizabeth, if I may respond to this:

People may view a situation like Iraq where civilians are bombed and killed in a positive light because they feel that killing civilians is killing a potential terrorist. Killing a potential terrorist means less threat for the world.

Allow me to embellish that I don't necessarily agree with the logic. I'm only evaluating the perspective of why people view bombing and killing with a positive outlook.
 
  • #69
Sting said:
this:

People may view a situation like Iraq where civilians are bombed and killed in a positive light because they feel that killing civilians is killing a potential terrorist. Killing a potential terrorist means less threat for the world.

Gosh, I really hope people don't think that way! If they do, then I assume they'd want to just nuke all of the Middle East. Afterall, we never know if who's a terrorist and who's not over there, right?
 
  • #70
loseyourname said:
In a war like the one we're involved in today, and in Vietnam, civilians were killed because the enemy disguises itself as civilians and makes it difficult to tell who's a threat and who is not a threat.

Your viewpoint is certainly one way to look at it. Another way that some people look at it is that the U.S. had no business in Vietname or in Iraq. Therefore, the reason that civilians were killed is that the U.S. invaded these 2 countries when it had no business doing so, and in the process used such excuses as yours to jusitify killing people that never should have been placed under attack in the first place.
 
  • #71
Prometheus said:
Your viewpoint is certainly one way to look at it. Another way that some people look at it is that the U.S. had no business in Vietname or in Iraq. Therefore, the reason that civilians were killed is that the U.S. invaded these 2 countries when it had no business doing so, and in the process used such excuses as yours to jusitify killing people that never should have been placed under attack in the first place.

I agree that the war in Vietnam was foolish (because it was strategically unnecessary), but I find it very interesting that no one ever seems to argue that North Vietnam had no right to invade and forcibly take over South Vietnam.

Elizabeth said:
I oppose ALL war. I don't see how bombing other people to smithereens (whether "intentional" or not) is an acceptable solution to anything.

I suspected that you felt this way. For my part, I'm damn glad we did what we did back in the 40's, and I think we should have done it a lot sooner.
 
  • #72
loseyourname said:
I agree that the war in Vietnam was foolish (because it was strategically unnecessary), but I find it very interesting that no one ever seems to argue that North Vietnam had no right to invade and forcibly take over South Vietnam.

Come on, surely you have heard many people make this claim.

But not me. What possible justification can you make for forcibly excising part of Vietnam and setting up a puppet government, and then claiming that they have no right to fight it out in their attempt to keep it separate or to unify?

Are you saying that the North had no right to invade and forcibly take over the South in the American Civil War? In this case, at least the people involved chose the division, unlike in Vietnam where greedy imperialists made the decisions.

If you believe that North Vietnam had no right to go to war to reunify with the South, then I claim that you have no right to support any war that has ever happened in history, as there can be no better justification for a war.

You probably believe that China would be evil if they were to invade Taiwan. After all, the U.S. stole it fair and square.
 
  • #73
So you equate the Confederacy's desire to secede due to the fact that they wanted to continue to enslave Africans to Taiwan's desire for basic human rights and self-determination? Is that really a good comparison to make? Are you a communist? I'm not saying your opinion is invalidated if you are, but I'm curious.
 
  • #74
Voting for Bush means voting for the status quo dismal intelligence that allows Al Queda to thrive.


What remains inexplicable to me is why the Bush administration would believe that the attacks did not prove the need for an urgent overhaul of U.S. intelligence, but that business as usual would suffice? Whatever one thinks of Bush on other subjects, this decision remains unexplained and undefended.

Did Clinton find out about the first bombing of the WTC in time to prevent it? In his eight years as President, did he overhaul the CIA to fit with modern times?
 
  • #75
loseyourname said:
So you equate the Confederacy's desire to secede due to the fact that they wanted to continue to enslave Africans to Taiwan's desire for basic human rights and self-determination? Is that really a good comparison to make? Are you a communist? I'm not saying your opinion is invalidated if you are, but I'm curious.

Are you a communist? I'm not saying your question is meaningless, but it is.

You speak of Taiwan's desire for basic human rights and self-determination. How old are you, under 25?

Taiwan did not secede from China for basic human rights or for self-determination. The United States supported its point man in China, Chiang Kai-Shek. He had zero concern for the inhabitants of the island that he invaded from China. The native Taiwanese despise him. They appreciate the position that they are in due to the assistance that the U.S. gave to Taiwan, and particularly the money. Ask a Taiwanese man, not a descendent of one of the soldiers in the invasion, if he thinks that Chiang Kai-Shek did anything for the basic human rights of his parents when he invaded.

The South in the U.S. wanted self-determination. Taiwan did not. Taiwan was invaded by a ruthless dictator who held power only thanks to help from the U.S. His invasion was brutal to the local inhabitants. Read a history book.
 
  • #76
Interesting opinion on Taiwan:

http://www.npf.org.tw/English/Publication/NS/NS-C-090-261.htm
 
  • #77
JohnDubYa said:
Interesting opinion on Taiwan:

http://www.npf.org.tw/English/Publication/NS/NS-C-090-261.htm

Gee whiz. Aren't we surprised that the Taiwan National Policy Foundation writes a completely unbiased account of how wonderful Chiang Kai-Shek was?
Surely, the Taiwanese that survived the initial slaughter should thank the heavens for his coming.
 
  • #78
loseyourname said:
I agree that the war in Vietnam was foolish (because it was strategically unnecessary),
Are you a communist? I'm not saying your opinion is invalidated if you are, but I'm curious.
 
  • #79
Afterall, we never know if who's a terrorist and who's not over there, right?

I agree. And remember that terrorists are not limited to Islamic Arabs which makes the question even more mentally-draining.

If they do, then I assume they'd want to just nuke all of the Middle East.

I know some people who would agree to that sentiment.

Gosh, I really hope people don't think that way!

I hope so too.
 
  • #80
Elizabeth1405 said:
...unless he happens to be a Democrat, like Jimmy Carter
I've never seen Carter cited on this issue (maybe I'm too young). But no, I don't consider any President, even Carter, to have much of an impact. So now its up to you: do you think Carter was responsible for the economy of the 70s? Do you think Clinton was responsible for the economy of the 90s? Do you want to have it both ways?
I oppose ALL war. I don't see how bombing other people to smithereens (whether "intentional" or not) is an acceptable solution to anything.
That certainly is a comfortable - if not realistic - opinion. In what period of history would such a position have been actionable? I can't think of one.

I see bumper stickers and t-shirts all the time that say "War is not the answer." Never once have I seen one that says "the answer is..." Its a lot easier to condemn an action than to suggest an alternative.

For example, pick a world leader to replace (except for Hitler) and a year (sometime in the mid-'30s, probably). Put in that position, what would you have done to prevent WWII.
 
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  • #81
loseyourname said:
I was being serious, dickhead. Never mind.

My gosh. Did I upset you? How could that be, since I only asked you the same question that you asked me.

You pretend to be upset. Sure. You are serious. Sure. You attempt to insult me, and then you get vulgar in reaction to the same question that you hoped I would smile at? Sure.

I do confess that I did not realize that you are so eloquent. You are serious, aren't you? Never mind.
 
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  • #82
Ah, I'm sorry. I'm just really frustrated that no one on this forum ever answers a question. I honestly wanted to know if you are a communist.
 
  • #84
I was pissed off at him, but George W. has my vote after seeing the image, although I wish he had been playing real football. (I call him by his first name since we are such good friends.)
 
  • #85
I think putting that photo forth as indicative of character is more indicative of the character of the poster..
 
  • #86
kat said:
I think putting that photo forth as indicative of character is more indicative of the character of the poster..
Oh come on, don't take everything so seriously. You really don't think seeing the president punching someone in the face is funny?
 
  • #87
I remember the story about J.C. Watts decking someone at a YMCA. Someone pushed a kid down on the running track and J.C. whapped him. Knocked him out. J.C. later apologized, but I didn't think he needed to.

Must be a Republican thing.
 
  • #88
I've seen that list before-41 reasons why George Bush sucks. This one is even better, how bout 1000 reasons why you should hate george bush. And every reason has a citation how bout that! www.thousandreasons.org
 
  • #89
JohnDubYa said:
I remember the story about J.C. Watts decking someone at a YMCA. Someone pushed a kid down on the running track and J.C. whapped him. Knocked him out. J.C. later apologized, but I didn't think he needed to.

Must be a Republican thing.
Nah, it's just when Howard Dean flips out, he makes sure no one hears from the guy again :smile:
 
  • #90
Does he threaten him with litigation?
 
  • #91
how did I miss this amazing circle jerk until now??
BTW Ivan, 6 pages ago you made an original post. A quick google search shows most of those points are fake.
I'll write it all out later if I get some time.

I really can't wait for this board to come back to some calibur of quality.
 
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