Is Space an Object Capable of Bending?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of space and whether it can be considered an object capable of bending. Participants explore the conceptual and philosophical implications of space, its relationship with mass, and the effects of gravity on the geometry of spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that space must be made of some material or substance since it can be bent by mass, questioning how space can bend if it is not a thing.
  • Others argue that space does not need to be made of anything; rather, the bending of light in strong gravitational fields illustrates how mass affects the geometry of spacetime without implying that space itself is a tangible entity.
  • A participant mentions that the concept of space bending is a shorthand for describing how objects travel along geodesics in Riemann Geometry, suggesting that this is a common misunderstanding influenced by popular science presentations.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that the definition of whether space is a "thing" is subjective and delves into metaphysical territory, indicating a lack of consensus on the matter.
  • One participant compares space to a force, noting that while we cannot see space, we can observe its effects, similar to how forces are understood.
  • A philosophical perspective is introduced, referencing Ernst Mach's idea that space is a mental abstraction dependent on the existence of objects, implying that without matter, the concept of space may not hold meaning.
  • Concerns are raised about the philosophical nature of the question, with some participants suggesting that it cannot be resolved through experimental data and may not fit within the scientific framework typically discussed in the forum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the nature of space, with no consensus reached regarding whether space can be considered an object or if it is merely a conceptual framework. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion touches on philosophical interpretations of space and its relationship with mass and energy, highlighting limitations in defining space without consensus on its nature.

AishaGirl
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What I don't understand about the universe is empty space must be made of some kind of material or substance because stars and other large bodies, in fact anything with mass can bend space then it must be made of something which has the capability to bend and be distorted.

How can space bend if space is not a thing? I don't understand.
 
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AishaGirl said:
then it must be made of something which has the capability to bend and be distorted.
It does not necessarily need to be made of anything. Light can be bent as a result of strong gravitational fields, which is what happens in the case of black holes.
 
AishaGirl said:
What I don't understand about the universe is empty space must be made of some kind of material or substance because stars and other large bodies, in fact anything with mass can bend space then it must be made of something which has the capability to bend and be distorted.

How can space bend if space is not a thing? I don't understand.
You are having a very common misunderstanding, based on pop-sci presentations. Space is not a thing and does not actually bend or warp or do any of those things. What DOES happen is that things travel on what are called "geodesics", which are straight lines in Riemann Geometry, which is the geometry that describes space-time. When looked at from the point of view of Euclidean Geometry, those same lines are "bent" or "curved". So we SAY that heavy objects like planets "bend" spacetime but that's just shorthand for what I just said.
 
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AishaGirl said:
How can space bend if space is not a thing? I don't understand.

As phinds said, Space isn't bending. That's just a common way to describe it because the effect is somewhat similar to what happens if you bend the surface of an object. What happens is that the geometry of spacetime changes in the presence of mass or energy.

Still, your question has merit and the question of whether space (or spacetime) is a "thing" depends upon your definition of what a "thing" is. This gets into metaphysics and there's no consensus that I know of at this time.
 
Space is like a force. Is a force made of some kind of material? I don't know the fact is that it is a measurable quantity that has effects on things in the nature. We cannot see a force but only its effect ad we cannot see the space but the extension of the space ...
I don't know if this clarify, sometimes speaking on these thin interpretations I get confused ...

Ssnow
 
This may be too philosophical a question for PF, because you can't resolve it to one way or the other with any experimental data... Ernst Mach said something along the lines "Space is a mental abstraction that we construct to describe relationships between objects", which clearly implies a view that without objects like planets, stars, dust clouds, etc. there is no space. Then again, an "empty" space can contain energy in the form of gravitational waves, but you can't measure that energy without also having matter present (because any measuring instrument, not to mention a person using it, must necessarily be made of matter).
 
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hilbert2 said:
This may be too philosophical a question for PF, because you can't resolve it to one way or the other with any experimental data...

I think that's certainly a valid point.

AishaGirl, I don't mean to shut down your question, but the fact is that this falls more into philosophy than science and we don't usually allow philosophy here at PF. If you'd like to understand how science models spacetime and all the rules we use to predict things within it, feel free to ask. But the question of "is space an object" just cannot be answered at this time.

Thread locked.
 

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