Is Space Considered a Medium for Photons and Other Waves?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether space can be considered a medium through which photons and other waves travel. Participants explore various perspectives on the nature of space, its properties, and its role in wave propagation, touching on concepts from physics, including electromagnetic waves and sound waves.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that space is not a medium, as electromagnetic (EM) waves do not require one to propagate.
  • Others suggest that while EM waves can travel through various media, space itself is not typically considered a medium.
  • A few participants propose that space may not be empty and contains virtual particles, leading to the idea that it could be viewed as a medium.
  • Some contributions highlight that sound waves require a medium, and thus space should not be classified as one for sound propagation.
  • There are claims that the concept of a medium can be broadly defined, but this leads to disagreements about the implications of such definitions.
  • Participants discuss the idea of virtual particles and their role in quantum field theory, with differing views on their physical reality and relevance to the medium concept.
  • One participant suggests thinking in terms of space-time rather than a physical medium, introducing a more abstract interpretation of wave propagation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether space can be considered a medium. Multiple competing views remain, with some firmly rejecting the idea while others entertain it under certain conditions.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of terms like "medium" and "field," indicating that these concepts may be subject to interpretation. The discussion also touches on the limitations of current understanding in quantum mechanics and the nature of virtual particles.

big_bounce
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Hello all .
Can we consider space as a medium that photons and other waves travel on that ?
 
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They don't travel "on" it, they travel "in" or "through" it. Saying that things travel "on" it would imply that it has substance, the way water does, as in "a boat travels on water".
 
No. EM waves don't need medium.
 
xAxis said:
No. EM waves don't need medium.

We know space is not really empty and has lowest energy state .
If a EM waves travel through space is that mean they travel through a medium ?
 
EM waves can travel through many mediums. Light travels through glass quite well, for example.

What is it you are trying to get at with your question? It seems that you just want someone to verify a personal theory that you have that says that space is some kind of quasi-solid "medium". That's not likely to happen.
 
phinds said:
EM waves can travel through many mediums. Light travels through glass quite well, for example.

What is it you are trying to get at with your question? It seems that you just want someone to verify a personal theory that you have that says that space is some kind of quasi-solid "medium". That's not likely to happen.

See , a 'medium' can be anything
The only thing that cannot be a medium is nothing but vacuum ( or space ) is not nothing there are virtual particle and minimum energy state in it .
SO with this describe can we consider vacuum ( or space ) a medium ?
 
Again, you whole purpose in this thread seems to be to get someone to agree with your conception that space is a "medium". It is not generally considered to be such, but if it makes you happy to think of it that way, why go right ahead.
 
big_bounce said:
We know space is not really empty and has lowest energy state .
If a EM waves travel through space is that mean they travel through a medium ?

Sound waves also travel through space. But we don't say space is the medium.
I don't think lowest energy state has anything to do with medium.
 
xAxis said:
Sound waves also travel through space. But we don't say space is the medium.
.

Really? So all those sci fic movies that have spaceships making whooshing sounds and so as they maneuver forth have it right?
 
  • #10
He maybe is referring to gas filled space, not vacuum, anyway there isn't aether nor aether-like medium. EM waves don't require it.
 
  • #11
Space may not be empty, but even if it were (hypothetically) devoid of fluctuations, light would still be able to travel through it.
 
  • #12
big_bounce said:
Hello all .
Can we consider space as a medium that photons and other waves travel on that ?

Better to think in terms of space-time. It's rather mind-bending, but it seems clear to me that the ponderomotive ether is space-time. Einstein, after dispatching the ether to the ash-bin of history, started mumbling about "e___r" in The Evolution of Physics.

"We shall say: our space has the physical property of transmitting waves, and so omit the use of the word we have decided to avoid." Page 176.
 
  • #13
big_bounce said:
See , a 'medium' can be anything
If that's true, then your question can have any answer anyone wants!

So I pick no.
 
  • #14
big_bounce said:
Hello all .
Can we consider space as a medium that photons and other waves travel on that ?

Space is a medium.
Nothing can exist without a medium.

We just can't figure out yet what space is made of.
 
  • #15
Insteading of thinking about a physical analogue, you might want to consider how a disturbance of one thing carries on to others.

In wave mechanics, there are typically two types of waves: longitudinal and transverse waves and they each have an interpretation related to how the phenomena creates a particular kind of disturbance.

In terms of looking at it in terms of pure information, it needs no medium per se: the disturbances indicate how data and information flow and that corresponds to an underlying process whatever that process may be.

You can make an interpretation or an analogy to attempt to understand that within the linguistic context that is most familiar to you (whether that is using physical and abstract analogues that are you used to and comfortable with) but they do not change the invariant nature of the information approach.

These medium questions are ones that pre-constrain the structural characteristics of a system and if they are pre-constrained too much, then the overall detail of the system will be so diminished from its original definition, that it will not represent it in any proper capacity.

This is why its recommended to not have pre-constraints and to just focus on the information and this is the exact thing that is starting to happen with the advent and necessity of computational science.
 
  • #16
Neandethal00 said:
Space is a medium.
Nothing can exist without a medium.

We just can't figure out yet what space is made of.

There is no evidence for this and no reason to think this is true either. I could be correct, or it may not be.
 
  • #17
Electromagnetic waves are waves in electromagnetic fields. Hence the name.
 
  • #18
big_bounce said:
See , a 'medium' can be anything
The only thing that cannot be a medium is nothing but vacuum ( or space ) is not nothing there are virtual particle and minimum energy state in it .
SO with this describe can we consider vacuum ( or space ) a medium ?

You are not free to redefine a physics description any way you like. You asked a question, it was answered.

Zz.
 
  • #19
phinds said:
Really? So all those sci fic movies that have spaceships making whooshing sounds and so as they maneuver forth have it right?

Actually, for really loud sounds such as the death star exploding aalderen I can't see why they shouldn't make a noise in space. Space isn't a perfect vacuum, after all, and when you have 10^38J or 10^32J whatever, even a small fraction of that is going to make a gigantic noise that even micropascals pressure might let through.
 
  • #20
jetwaterluffy said:
Actually, for really loud sounds such as the death star exploding aalderen I can't see why they shouldn't make a noise in space. Space isn't a perfect vacuum, after all, and when you have 10^38J or 10^32J whatever, even a small fraction of that is going to make a gigantic noise that even micropascals pressure might let through.

First of all, let's not get this thread off track.

Secondly, there is no "sound" here because "sound" requires a vibration of a medium. When one is no longer in the "viscous flow" regime, there is no longer a correlated motion of the medium. You may have a shower of particle, etc. moving, but this is not what you call "sound".

So be VERY careful in the terminology that you are using. Like I said, none of us here are free to redefine many of these terms.

Zz.
 
  • #21
big_bounce said:
See , a 'medium' can be anything
The only thing that cannot be a medium is nothing but vacuum ( or space ) is not nothing there are virtual particle and minimum energy state in it .
SO with this describe can we consider vacuum ( or space ) a medium ?

I've never seen a virtual particle, have you? AFAIK, a virtual particle is a mathematical construct. Quantum field theory must have some merit or it wouldn't have its predictive power, but there are some serious problems with QM when it the mathematical assumptions are taken as representing physical reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4
 
  • #22
I tend to think of virtual particles as being like zeros used as placeholders in numbers. They represent a disturbance in a field, but, have no independent, objective reality.
 
  • #23
Chronos said:
I tend to think of virtual particles as being like zeros used as placeholders in numbers. They represent a disturbance in a field, but, have no independent, objective reality.

What do you mean by "field"? Is this an algebraic field? A vector field in the sense the physicist invented? Is this a vector field in the sense the mathematician absconded with? Is this a potential field? Wheat field? ...
 
  • #24
What's the difference between the content of an empty box in deep space, and the content of a box of zero volume anywhere?
 
  • #25
One box has real volume and can have real contents...the other doesn't have any volume so cannot contain anything real.

No-one has ever seen a quark either. Are they real?
 
  • #27
  • #28
harrylin said:
You may like the following (some people hate it):
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ether_and_the_Theory_of_Relativity

And some people hate it with good reason (it is outdated!), and you should know well enough to not use it because it will only add unnecessary confusion to this!

What's next? Reference to the Caloric each time we have a discussion on Thermodynamics?

Zz.
 
  • #29
The light from very distant objects is red shifted because they are moving "expanding" away from us at great velocity. I have read that this limits how far away an object can be for us to view it (observable universe). I have also read that this may not be a limit to the size of the universe because space itself can expand faster than c. Does this imply that space is a medium and that the speed of light limit only applies to things that are in it?
 
  • #30
JustinRyan said:
One box has real volume and can have real contents...the other doesn't have any volume so cannot contain anything real.

No-one has ever seen a quark either. Are they real?

Suppose the empty box is in free float near a strong gravitational attractor. The volume contained therein will have some amount of curvature. That is to say, a non-zero stress-energy tensor. That is to say, the box will contain momenergy.

Now, you couldn't simply take a whole bunch of boxes, pack up all of the space-time curvature and ship it off via intergalactic FedEx. You can't confine that form of momenergy in a material container.

In addition, no box will ever be completely devoid of content. If nothing else, there will be background radiation in it. If it is ever accelerated, that will stir up small EM disturbances.

Even the material of the walls of the box will have some mass, that will equate to the presence of a miniscule space-time curvature.
 

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