Is the Brain the Origin of Our Thoughts, or Merely a Receiver?

[kiki_danc]

MRI or other scanning techniques show how particular parts of the brain 'light up' when particular mental activities are going on. But then the video and sound of TV sets also depend on the patterns of electrical activities inside it.

So different circuits are involved in images and sounds.. but this doesn't mean what you see and hear on the TV originates inside the TV.. couldn't the Brain be like this too?

What neuroscientific evidence or arguments to illustrate the brain is the origin of all we think and feel and not like a TV receiver (just a dumb terminal)?

I'm not arguing for any view, just want to know existing knowledge and facts about the brain.

 

[mfb]

The analogy to the TV here would be the MRI machine and its computer, not the brain. The brain is the origin of what is being measured.

What neuroscientific evidence or arguments to illustrate the brain is the origin of all we think and feel and not like a TV receiver (just a dumb terminal)?

It only receives inputs from the nerves in the body, which are clearly not thoughts.

 

[kiki_danc]

The analogy to the TV here would be the MRI machine and its computer, not the brain. The brain is the origin of what is being measured.It only receives inputs from the nerves in the body, which are clearly not thoughts.

Nerves in the body could address unconscious processes like walking or controlling our homeostasis like breathing, heartrate and other autonomic functions. But won't some nerves be dumb terminals that connects to higher function like conscious experiences?

If you are saying all the nerves can themselves produce conscious experiences... may we know how they exactly occur? Is the evidence air tight that our nerves both produce the unconscious and conscious processes wholly and completely?

 

[Rive]

Is the evidence air tight that our nerves both produce the unconscious and conscious processes wholly and completely?

That's the wrong type of question. On scientific basis the right question is if there is any evidence that any part of the unconscious and conscious processes is not done by nerves?

 

[kiki_danc]

That's the wrong type of question. On scientific basis the right question is if there is any evidence that any part of the unconscious and conscious processes is not done by nerves?

Even if the answer is yes.. I read the prime directive or function of Physicsforums is to discuss mainstream information (so all non-mainstream information is disallowed or filtered to avoid people not taking it seriously). Therefore the safer question to ask is... "if there is any evidence that all part of the unconscious and conscious processes is done by nerves?" Well?

 

[DrClaude]

What neuroscientific evidence or arguments to illustrate the brain is the origin of all we think and feel and not like a TV receiver (just a dumb terminal)?

All scientific evidence points to the fact the the mind is a creation of the brain. Modifications of the brain (for instance through accident, disease, lobotomy, ...) alters the mind. Following Occam's razor, there is no point in adding complexity by thinking that there is an agent outside the brain is responsible for the mind, especially since no evidence of such an external agent has ever been found.

 

[kiki_danc]

All scientific evidence points to the fact the the mind is a creation of the brain. Modifications of the brain (for instance through accident, disease, lobotomy, ...) alters the mind. Following Occam's razor, there is no point in adding complexity by thinking that there is an agent outside the brain is responsible for the mind, especially since no evidence of such an external agent has ever been found.

I'm not talking about the homunculus or single mind behind the brain.. just the possible logic that our brain has separate consciousness... remember split brain patients where the left brain and right brain is independent and has mind of its own. hence we have akin to different minds in our brain.. and my question is whether some emotional (or abstract) aspect of us is the mind that is not in the brain.

 

[DrClaude]

just the possible logic that our brain has separate consciousness...

That's the point I was addressing: by "external agent," I meant something not part of the brain itself, not something like alien signals...

Still, there is no scientific reason to think that the mind (or consciousness) is anything else than an emergent phenomenon.

 

[mfb]

You can never rule out the existence of an invisible unicorn floating next to the brain and interacting with it so minimally that we will never detect it. That doesn't make it a good hypothesis. We have never seen a part of the brain react to something that was not an input from other parts of the body. While there are many things left to understand we understand the individual components of a brain and they don't have an antenna for invisible unicorns. We also know a network of neurons alone is sufficient to explain all the "output" of a human brain.

If you are saying all the nerves can themselves produce conscious experiences... may we know how they exactly occur?

First you have to find a test that can determine if something has a consciousness. Otherwise it is pointless to discuss consciousness.

 

[kiki_danc]

That's the point I was addressing: by "external agent," I meant something not part of the brain itself, not something like alien signals...

Still, there is no scientific reason to think that the mind (or consciousness) is anything else than an emergent phenomenon.

Brain is originator of unconscious impulses.
Brain is originator of lower thoughts.
Brain is originator of lower emotions.

No problem about this.

But for higher abstract thoughts and higher emotions. Couldn't these be outside the brain..

In our discussions. Let's not think of this idea that a single mind controls the brain. I'm not arguing for this. Neuroscience has shown us that the brain is major source of thoughts and in many diseases, thinking is affected such that when the nail entered the brain of this Cage guy.. his behavior changes.

Or let's use the label of quantum mind that could be the source of abstract thoughts and higher emotions. What is the latest quantum mind theory right now? Note quantum mind doesn't replace the function of the brain intricate circuitry but just as the source of abstract thoughts and higher emotions like that detailed by Hameroff.

 

[DrClaude]

Thread closed pending moderation.

Edit: While the "quantum mind" idea has been discussed by serious people, it is not part of mainstream science. As for the original question, we don't think that more needs to be said without drifting away from what we allow here, so the thread will remain closed.