Is the fate of black dwarfs to become neutron stars without proton decay?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the fate of black dwarfs and whether they could quantum tunnel into neutron stars in the absence of proton decay. Participants explore theoretical implications and physical considerations related to quantum tunneling, stability of particles, and the long-term evolution of matter in astrophysical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that black dwarfs could quantum tunnel into neutron stars if proton decay does not occur, although this is considered highly unlikely due to the vast scales involved.
  • Others argue that the quantum tunneling of macroscopic masses over large distances is practically impossible, suggesting that black dwarfs are more likely to interact with other celestial bodies before undergoing such a transformation.
  • A participant notes that if protons decay, the resulting neutrons would not be stable in the low gravity of a black dwarf, as free neutrons decay rapidly, while neutron stars maintain stability due to their immense gravitational forces.
  • Another viewpoint mentions that matter in black dwarfs could quantum tunnel and fuse into iron if protons do not decay, referencing a book that discusses the long-term future of matter and the immense timescales involved in such processes.
  • A participant highlights that the concept of "cold fusion" tunneling to iron was derived from a paper by Freeman Dyson, which presents a multi-exponential figure for the tunneling time to iron.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the likelihood of black dwarfs quantum tunneling into neutron stars, with no consensus reached on the feasibility of such processes or the implications of proton decay.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of quantum tunneling and its dependence on various physical conditions, as well as the unresolved nature of proton decay and its implications for particle stability.

Dremmer
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Will black dwarfs eventually quantum tunnel into neutron stars if proton decay doesn't occur?
 
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Dremmer said:
Will black dwarfs eventually quantum tunnel into neutron stars if proton decay doesn't occur?
I haven't done the math to be sure, but physical considerations alone seem to make it (practically) impossible. In order for a black dwarf to tunnel into a neutron star state much of the matter would have to tunnel into a much smaller volume. While quantum tunneling of macroscopic masses over macroscopic distances may be possible under the correct conditions, it is mind-boggingly unlikely for it to occur on such scales (think once in many googles of years or more). It is much more likely that a black dwarf would encounter another star/black hole first (and in the process probably cease to be a black dwarf).

If I remember correctly, just considering semi-classical gravity would predict protons to decay by tunneling into a microscopic black hole which would then evaporate. Though, I guess we won't have a really good idea whether or not that happens until evidence is found for a theory of quantum gravity (or a model of particle physics that predicts decay).
 
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Neutrons resulting from proton decay would promply decay. The gravity of a black dwarf is too low to stabilize them. Free neutrons decay in about 7 minutes. Neutron stars are stable only because of their immense gravity.
 


I had a book a long time ago on the universe. Anyway this book stated that the matter in things such as black dwarfs would quantum tunnel and fuse into iron if protons did not decay. Iron being the most stable element.
 


Forestman said:
I had a book a long time ago on the universe. Anyway this book stated that the matter in things such as black dwarfs would quantum tunnel and fuse into iron if protons did not decay. Iron being the most stable element.

The book was drawing on conclusions from a paper by Freeman Dyson called "Time Without End", which discussed the very long distant future of matter. The "cold fusion" tunneling time all the way to iron was some immense figure, a multi-exponential number.
 

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