Is the Order of Bras and Kets Important in Equations?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the importance of the order of bras and kets in quantum mechanics equations, particularly in the context of inner products and linear operators. Participants explore the implications of rearranging these elements in mathematical expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about whether the order of bras and kets must be maintained unless they form an inner product, citing a specific equation as an example.
  • Another participant provides a detailed mathematical derivation involving the trace of a linear operator, illustrating how bras and kets can be manipulated under certain conditions.
  • There is a clarification regarding the summation over an orthonormal basis, with emphasis on the definition of the trace of a linear operator.
  • A participant seeks confirmation about their understanding that the order of bras and kets is significant and can only be rearranged if they form an inner product.
  • Another participant agrees with this understanding, noting that rearranging bras and kets can lead to fundamentally different mathematical objects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While there is some agreement on the importance of the order of bras and kets, the discussion includes varying levels of understanding and interpretation of the mathematical principles involved. Participants express differing levels of confidence in their grasp of the concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the need for an orthonormal basis and the dimensionality of the Hilbert space, which may affect the application of the discussed principles. The discussion does not resolve all uncertainties regarding the manipulation of bras and kets.

dyn
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When re-arranging equations with bras and kets I was under the impression that the order of the bras and kets had to be maintained unless they formed an inner product ie. just a complex number in which case they could be moved around ? Is this the case ? As I am confused about the following equation I found
Tr |u><u|v><v| = <v|u><u|v>
In this example the bra <v| seems to have jumped from the end to the start.
 
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$$\operatorname{Tr}|u\rangle\langle u|v\rangle\langle v| =\sum_i \langle i|u\rangle\langle u|v\rangle\langle v|i\rangle = \sum_i \langle u|v\rangle\langle v|i\rangle\langle i|u\rangle = \langle u|v\rangle\langle v|\bigg(\sum_i |i\rangle\langle i\bigg)|u\rangle =\langle u|v\rangle\langle v|u\rangle$$
 
Thanks for that but I'm confused about the first step. At first I thought I was the imaginary number but it looks like an integer you are summing over but I don't understand how it can be brought into the equation.
 
dyn said:
Thanks for that but I'm confused about the first step. At first I thought I was the imaginary number but it looks like an integer you are summing over but I don't understand how it can be brought into the equation.
Sorry about that. Yes, it's an integer. I should at least have started with this statement: Let ##\{|i\rangle\}_{i=1}^\infty## be any orthonormal basis.

If the Hilbert space is finite-dimensional, replace ##\infty## with ##\dim\mathcal H## (where ##\mathcal H## denotes the Hilbert space). The first step in that calculation is just the definition of the trace of a linear operator.

You may want to also take a look at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=694922 about the relationship between linear operators and matrices.
 
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Thanks. I understand it now. Could you just confirm for me that my original statement is correct , ie the order of bras and kets does matter and they can only be rearranged in order if they form an inner product ?
 
Yes, it's correct. If you move them around, you may end up with an entirely different object than the one you started with, as in this case, where |u><u|v><v| is a linear operator and <u|v><v|u> is a number.
 
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