Is there any way to derive the time dilation formula?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the time dilation formula in the context of special relativity. Participants express a desire for derivations that do not rely on specific scenarios, such as the light pulse clock demonstrating zig-zag motion, and seek a more universal approach to understanding the relationship between proper time and dilated time intervals due to relative motion between reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express dissatisfaction with existing derivations that use light pulse clocks, arguing that they represent special cases rather than universal derivations.
  • One participant proposes a derivation using the proper time of a moving particle, leading to the relationship between proper time and dilated time intervals.
  • Another participant suggests that time dilation can be derived using Doppler shifts and the principle of relativity, emphasizing the need to consider both observers' perspectives in the analysis.
  • Some participants raise concerns about the implications of length contraction when light is emitted in the direction of motion, questioning how to reconcile this with time dilation.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of time dilation, with one participant asserting that it is a fundamental phenomenon independent of the method of measurement.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best method to derive the time dilation formula. Multiple competing views and approaches are presented, with ongoing debate about the validity and universality of different derivations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in existing derivations, such as reliance on specific clock types or assumptions about the constancy of light speed. The discussion also touches on the interdependence of time dilation and length contraction, indicating unresolved mathematical relationships.

  • #31
Prem1998 said:
I've already read the derivation in which we use the light pulse clock kept in a spacecraft such that the light pulse follows a zig-zag motion due to motion of the spacecraft being perpendicular to motion of the light pulse. Then, we apply Pythagoras theorem to derive the formula.
BUT this seems like derivation in a special case, not a universal derivation.

Further to my post #30, go-return or your "a zig-zag" path of light scheme seems essential to define time.
You prepare a measure and emit light and accept light that was reflected at the other end of the measure.
This procedure defines proper time interval of the observer, I think.

I think further
-Time cannot be defined on mathematical point of spacetime. We need space for light to go-return that we can set as small as we like theoretically.
-QM might say something on fundamental uncertainty of deciding time and also space that matters setting length and position of the measure used for time decision.
 
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  • #32
Nugatory said:
It is enough - @pixel mentions this possibility in #22 above.
Funny thing, the light clock and the Pythagorean theorem is exactly how I derived the Lorentz factor for the very first time. But back then I thought special relativity was just taking a Newtonian physics relationship and multiplying it by the Lorentz factor, lol. Works for 3-momentum, though. ;). γ(u)mu
 

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