Is THIS really the correct way to judge math and science talent ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sankalpmittal
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Judge Science
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the effectiveness of math and science Olympiads as a measure of talent and understanding in these subjects. Participants explore whether success in these competitions truly reflects a person's knowledge and problem-solving abilities, or if it is influenced by factors such as memorization and coaching.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that Olympiads do not accurately reflect true understanding of math and science, suggesting that many who excel may rely on memorization rather than deep knowledge.
  • Others contend that performing well in Olympiads indicates a certain level of talent and comprehension, as these tests require insight and problem-solving skills.
  • There is a viewpoint that Olympiad problems test ingenuity and critical thinking more than rote knowledge, challenging participants to apply concepts creatively.
  • A participant expresses frustration with their own performance in Olympiads, questioning the relationship between theoretical knowledge and problem-solving ability.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for bias in judging others' knowledge based on their Olympiad performance or grades, suggesting that intelligence cannot be solely measured by these competitions.
  • Some participants reflect on their personal experiences with Olympiads, noting feelings of inadequacy and the perception that these competitions may not connect well with broader mathematical understanding.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of Olympiad problems, with some asserting that they require specific training and familiarity with the types of questions posed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of opinions, with no clear consensus on whether Olympiads are a valid measure of mathematical and scientific talent. Some believe they are indicative of ability, while others strongly disagree, highlighting the limitations and biases inherent in such assessments.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that success in Olympiads may not correlate with broader research abilities or deep theoretical understanding, indicating a potential limitation in how these competitions assess talent.

sankalpmittal
Messages
785
Reaction score
27
After a lot of thoughts , I quite agree that the present system which the world has adopted say NOTHING about the math and science talent ! Do you people really think those ... umm Math and science Olympiads say something about your knowledge in math and science ? I don't think so !

I noticed that there are people who understand math and science very well and in detail but still they fail to do the Olympiads or even the examination system. Olympiads are just mere solving and nothing else ! I know there are many people who don't possesses good and conceptual knowledge but still they perform in some Olympiads. Even some people by mere cramming and memorizing perform in these GOD DAMN exams !

Please discuss...
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
The kids who do well on the Olympiad exams/SAT test(primarily Math section) obviously have some talent because they are able to comprehend what is being asked of them...and that's half the battle with these tests.
 
So far as I know, in most cases Olympiads are voluntary. If they bother you so much, why do you pay any attention to them?
 
Well, the fact remains that many winners of the IMO and the Putnam have gone on to win the Fields Medal. Now, unless you're arguing that the latter is also not a true indication of mathematical ability, you have to concede that these high level competitions count for something.

Not everyone who wins (or does very well) at an Olympiad goes on to become a distinguished mathematician or scientist. But many distinguished scientists have a history of having done very well in such competitions.

And Olympiad type competitions are NOT about cramming and regurgitating facts. If anything normal school exam problems are susceptible to this criticism. Olympiad-type problems require a deeper understanding of concepts and how to use them in actual problem solving and proofs. They test insight far more than memory.

And I also submit to you that, while one can train for Olympiads and improve one's performance, natural ability does a whole lot more to determine one's final performance.
 
Ok , thanks for your replies.. Still I find that there are people who have less knowledge than others and still they manage to excel in these Olympiads. I also find that deep rooted theoretical knowledge in some way is not too much related to problem solving ability.
Is this true ? Any views ? I am in class 10th , 15 years and I never got very good positions in these Olympiads.

I gave several other competitions in India but my performance seems to be worst in these Olympiads only !
 
sankalpmittal said:
Still I find that there are people who have less knowledge than others and still they manage to excel in these Olympiads.
How do you know they have "less knowledge than others?" Have you done some kind of intelligence testing on them? Or do you just have a lower opinion of them based on your interactions with them or perhaps the grades that they get? There are all sorts of reasons why people get poor grades or are not articulate among their peers that have nothing to do with intelligence.

Further, what does it matter?

The world is full of less-than-stellar people who have achieved great things. It is quite likely that at least one time in your life you are going to work for one of them.
 
Most of us never competed in a national math olympiad so that the opinions are at least partially unjustified.

However, I occasionally look at some of these problems and, boy, are they difficult!

Many people are very good at math. I bet that at least 0.5% of eighth graders know at least calculus (at least I and one of my middle school friends did). However, the math olympiads test much more than just knowledge, they test ingenuity and critical thinking. Looking at a problem from every angle is definitely a good skill in mathematics. I do not see any harm in participating in it as long as one doesn't go overboard (competing instead of socializing or even learning different mathematics).

As a bonus here is Terrance Tao's advice on math competitions for young mathematicians.
 
Choppy said:
How do you know they have "less knowledge than others?" Have you done some kind of intelligence testing on them? Or do you just have a lower opinion of them based on your interactions with them or perhaps the grades that they get? There are all sorts of reasons why people get poor grades or are not articulate among their peers that have nothing to do with intelligence.

Further, what does it matter?

The world is full of less-than-stellar people who have achieved great things. It is quite likely that at least one time in your life you are going to work for one of them.

Again I know because of the interactions and also the other aspects ! Anyways do you think Olympiads are indicative in terms of a person's abilities and insights in mathematics and science ?

There are many people who are good researchers and can think deeply about the aspects but yet they fail to excel in Olympiads. Why ? This is because Olympiads want solutions first.

Olympiads check problem solving ability rather than the good research ability and insightful thoughts of a person. Isn't this true ?

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=546245

The people who get good ranks in Olympiads are good in problem solving ability. I concur.

"The people who get good ranks in Olympiads possesses far vast knowledge and insights in math and science". I do not agree !

My weakness has always been problem solving. I don't know the method does not strike to me instantly. How can I improve it ?:frown:

Snicker , thanks for that site.
 
I've take part in Math Olympiads in China when I'm a high school student.I learned by my self and got a book then read it.I found I fear every hard problem I met because I can't solve it,even don't know where to start to think.And I also feel it boring because Olympiads problems had less connection in method or between each other(maybe that's not true).At last I give up Olympiads.

So I'm a loser in math Olympiads and I always feel sorry for that years ago.And I heard that at least half of the graduates in top graduate schools in America are Olympiads winner.Maybe it really means ability in math.
 
  • #10
sankalpmittal said:
Please discuss...

Better luck next time :devil:
 
  • #11
sankalpmittal said:
After a lot of thoughts , I quite agree that the present system which the world has adopted say NOTHING about the math and science talent ! Do you people really think those ... umm Math and science Olympiads say something about your knowledge in math and science ? I don't think so !

I noticed that there are people who understand math and science very well and in detail but still they fail to do the Olympiads or even the examination system. Olympiads are just mere solving and nothing else ! I know there are many people who don't possesses good and conceptual knowledge but still they perform in some Olympiads. Even some people by mere cramming and memorizing perform in these GOD DAMN exams !

Please discuss...

To me, they are both a test of knowledge and a test of cramming power.
Look, these tests, as my experience with them tells, are filled with some problems that require presence of minds, capability of combining various concepts, utilizing the previous knowledge of various classes and all. They challenge you and make you tough.
On the other hand, if you have already got coaching for a certain exam, you have just crammed the way of performing questions.
Also, these test include some questions that only a student who has done that type can answer. Maybe here I am wrong. Maybe brilliant students, with strong basics, can crack the exam well. But still, for above average, they are baseless.
 
  • #12
disregardthat said:
Better luck next time :devil:

Significant one liner.
Certainly, it is bad experience with them that makes you hate them. If you are scoring high marks, you are in love with them. You want more and more.
 
  • #13
Compare with the olympic games: Throwing a spear doesn't seem like a very useful thing to do or be good at, but the fact of the matter is that winning a gold medal in spear throwing shows supreme athletic skill and amazing physique.
 
  • #14
I'm like you sankalpmittal, I understand the math, but I can't solve the problems.
 
  • #15
Thanks for all the replies ! I think the practice is the only key to perform in these exams well...

Anyways thanks again !
:)
 

Similar threads

Testing How to not get stressed on the actual exam?
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
Studying Am I Challenging Myself Too Much in Math Learning?
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
Are true geniuses extinct?
  • · Replies 69 ·
3
Replies
69
Views
7K
Programs Should I become a physicist or a mathematician?
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Graduate Is mathematics really the Queen of Sciences?
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
25K
Is math's study only for the gifted?
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
4K
Discussion on the science-literature relationship and more
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
Deciding between Physics or Engineering after a very turbulent year
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
Admissions Chances of Getting into MIT as an International Student from India
  • · Replies 56 ·
2
Replies
56
Views
11K
Graduate Is Mathematics a Belief System?
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
5K