Is distance learning causing a rise in high school failures across the country?

[phinds]

Fox News is reporting this as a fact and while their opinion writers will lie at the drop of a hat, I have not found that their news department does that and yet I have searched a number of other news sites and cannot find any reference to this. I've searched for "Oregon governor", "Oregon 744", "Oregon Senate", and other phrases.

Oregon suspends math & reading proficiency requirements for high school graduates.

Charles Boyle, the deputy communications director from Brown’s office, told the paper in an email that staff from the governor’s office informed legislative staffers about the bill's signing on the day it was passed. He also said that the new standards for graduation will help benefit the state’s "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color."

[bolding is mine, not the article's]. Apparently they think having standards is racist.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/oregon-g...ing-proficiency-requirements-for-hs-graduates

 

[.Scott]

I found the bill: 2021 Oregon Senate Bill 744.
It was signed into law by the governor on July 14, 2021.
I am looking at it now ...

 

[mcastillo356]

In Spain, I had to pass an exam to prove skills in math, reading and writing, Spanish language knowledge, before enroling in Physics. I will also have to prove, if I finish, knowledge in English. The Uned does not make differences of race, religion, sex, etc... We are all the same. There is no positive nor negative discrimination.
Forgive me (and make me know) If I haven't understood OP.

 

[russ_watters]

Apparently they think having standards is racist.

It doesn't say that. There are some implications to the racial bias angle, but I'm not sure you don't have them inverted.

The general issue, though, does not have to have a racial angle. The general issue is the idea that if not enough people are passing the test you should lower the standard instead of teaching more/better. It's measuring outcomes based on graduation rates instead of knowledge.

 

[.Scott]

The impact statement is this:

SUMMARY

Directs Department of Education to review state requirements for high school diploma and to make
recommendations related to requirements. Requires department to provide report to interim
committees of Legislative Assembly related to education and to State Board of Education.

Suspends requirement of showing proficiency in Essential Learning Skills as condition of earning
diploma during 2021-2022, 2022-2023 or 2023-2024 school year.

Declares emergency, effective on passage.

 

[Office_Shredder]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/which-states-require-an-exam-to-graduate

Thirteen states require students to pass a test to get a high school diploma, one more than in 2017. In some states, students can use projects or portfolios to meet this requirement. Exit exams used to be more popular: In 2002, more than half the states required them.

Nothing special about Oregon here, getting rid of test requirements to graduate has been going away in general.

 

[phinds]

It doesn't say that.

I don't see how else to interpret
the new standards for graduation will help benefit the state’s "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color."

Do you think that lowering the standards is going to help those folks?

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see how else to interpret
the new standards for graduation will help benefit the state’s "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color."

Do you think that lowering the standards is going to help those folks?

Of course I don't believe reducing standards helps kids learn (note: you didn't specify help who with what). But there are a lot of different reasons people give for why the statistics are what they are and what changes should be aimed at fixing. Sure, some would say the tests are biased/racist. But others might say the economic status of the students makes it harder for them to learn. In my perception, these types of things tend to be justified vaguely in order to avoid dealing with such implications.

In this particular case it actually starts with 'COVID interrupted learning', which has nothing to do with race.

 

[.Scott]

Do you think that lowering the standards is going to help those folks?

Yes, it could. Not specifically minorities, but there are two related factors:
1) A lot of the "essential skills" are neither essential nor within reach of every student.
2) Even for those who can master them, it may not be the best use of their time.
The secondary education system in the US is (in my opinion) overly Procrustean.

 

[berkeman]

Yeah, the spin that the proponents are using is that test taking doesn't necessarily give you the best measure of what a student has learned. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I'm not intimately involved in education.

From a link in the text of the link that @phinds posted in Post #1:

"With SB 744, Oregon can ensure high school diplomas are rigorous, relevant, and truly reflect what every student needs to thrive in the 21st century," Foundations for a Better Oregon said in a statement supporting the bill. "An inclusive and equitable review of graduation and proficiency requirements, when guided by data and grounded in a commitment to every student’s success, will promote shared accountability and foster a more just Oregon."

Supporters also say testing on essential skills has historically hurt those with poor test-taking skills who would otherwise graduate.

https://katu.com/news/local/oregon-legislature-passes-bill-to-suspend-graduation-testing-requirement

 

[phinds]

But others might say the economic status of the students makes it harder for them to learn.

Sure but to then extrapolate that to saying let's lower the standards is not a good idea.

In this particular case it actually starts with 'COVID interrupted learning', which has nothing to do with race.

I agree that the original impetus for lower the standards was not racist but the subsequent statement that I bolded did seem that way to me.

Anyway, any suggestion that lowering standards is a good thing for minorities is a hot button w/ me.

EDIT: actually, any suggestion that lowering standards for ANYBODY is a good thing is a hot button for me, but I see the suggestion much more often as being "helpful" to minorities. I get that some people who say that are well intentioned but ...

 

[russ_watters]

EDIT: actually, any suggestion that lowering standards is a good thing for ANYBODY is a hot button for me, but I see the suggestion much more often as being "helpful" to minorities. I get that some people who say that are well intentioned but ...

It's a pet peve of mine too, but also a potential political landmine in the way these are pitched. Best to avoid the race angle if possible in my opinion, is all I'm suggesting

 

[gmax137]

The secondary education system in the US is (in my opinion) overly Procrustean.

And yet, how many graduates of that system could explain what this sentence means?

 

[phinds]

And yet, how many graduates of that system could explain what this sentence means?

Likely an unavoidable consequence of having universal K-12

 

[Bystander]

And yet, how many graduates of that system could explain what this sentence means?

universal

?

 

[gmax137]

I don't know, I think Theseus (including his adventure with Procrustes) was well known to an earlier generation schooled in the "universal" curriculum of their time. Today the curriculum has changed and a kid would have to be reading outside class to get it.

 

[berkeman]

Today the curriculum has changed and a kid would have to be reading outside class to get it.

Or use Google on their phone to learn it in under 5 seconds like I just did...

 

[vela]

I don't see how else to interpret
the new standards for graduation will help benefit the state’s "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color."

Do you think that lowering the standards is going to help those folks?

You are assuming the previous standard was the right one; therefore, eliminating it lowers the standards.

Due to the pandemic, many colleges waived the requirement for SAT scores, and some decided to do away with the requirement permanently. Did they lower their standards because students no longer had to achieve minimum SAT scores, or did they simply acknowledge that SAT scores were an outdated assessment for their purposes?

 

[nsaspook]

Of course I don't believe reducing standards helps kids learn (note: you didn't specify help who with what). But there are a lot of different reasons people give for why the statistics are what they are and what changes should be aimed at fixing. Sure, some would say the tests are biased/racist. But others might say the economic status of the students makes it harder for them to learn. In my perception, these types of things tend to be justified vaguely in order to avoid dealing with such implications.

In this particular case it actually starts with 'COVID interrupted learning', which has nothing to do with race.

My 15 to 16 yo was in remote-learning in Oregon for the last 1.5 years so I personally saw the effort it took to actually do the work of a typical school year at home. A huge number of students have been coasting during this time with teachers passing sudents that failed to even log into the system. Formally testing the bulk of Oregon students would reveal what an absolute farce remote-learning was during this time. IMO the "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color." mumbo-jumbo line is simply a PC smoke-screen to cover that failure.

https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/...-achievement-gaps-for-portland-students-pwoff

The attendance and failure rate issues were also found in neighboring suburban districts. In Tigard-Tualatin School District, only half of the district's Hispanic and Latino middle and high schoolers attended regularly during the first quarter of 2020.

In Hillsboro, the percentage of all high school students failing half or more of their classes during the first quarter of 2020-21 is at 26%, double what it was the prior year. The district is more diverse than its urban counterpart in Portland. In Hillsboro, 38% of students are Hispanic or Latino. Still, those students are failing at more than twice the rate of their white peers.

To the east, Reynolds School District reported only 30% of its high school students were "fully engaged" in school.

Ledezma and state leaders note that gaps in achievement among student demographic groups have been an issue long before the pandemic, but distance learning has exacerbated them.

https://katu.com/news/return-to-learn/how-successful-were-oregons-students-in-remote-learning

"Because we didn't test all of our children. So it would be inaccurate to try to surmise or summarize in that kind of global way that you just shared from other states around how our children are doing," Patterson said, explaining that standardized testing won't tell the whole story. "We want to be clear that caring for students, receiving them well, supporting them in learning, getting close up, contextualizing what their experiences have been over the past year and a half, what they're ready to learn next, is really what matters most."

ODE wants to shift the narrative. They're avoiding saying learning was lost, nor using the terminology "learning loss" to describe the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on student learning.

Instead, ODE is calling the impact "unfinished learning" and viewing the glass as half-full for its students.

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries...the-lingering-effects-of-unfinished-learning#

Our analysis shows that the impact of the pandemic on K–12 student learning was significant, leaving students on average five months behind in mathematics and four months behind in reading by the end of the school year. The pandemic widened preexisting opportunity and achievement gaps, hitting historically disadvantaged students hardest. In math, students in majority Black schools ended the year with six months of unfinished learning, students in low-income schools with seven. High schoolers have become more likely to drop out of school, and high school seniors, especially those from low-income families, are less likely to go on to postsecondary education. And the crisis had an impact on not just academics but also the broader health and well-being of students, with more than 35 percent of parents very or extremely concerned about their children’s mental health.

 

[Hornbein]

Sounds like it was infeasible to flunk that many students.

A basic principle of society is, "If everyone is doing it, you'll get away with it too."

 

[.Scott]

The first things that happen when classes are a mismatch for students in Secondary education is that kids stop going to school, or class, or they go to class but their minds are elsewhere.
In my opinion, the first rule of Secondary Education is not to waste the students time.

 

[Rive]

... The pandemic widened preexisting opportunity and achievement gaps, hitting historically disadvantaged students hardest...

School has a function of providing a different environment than (disadvantaged) home, so potentially bringing up students (giving a different norm, and with that: a chance, at least).
With that function gone (remote learning) no wonder the environment (background) becoming the dominant dividing factor again.

It's just I don't think modifying the standards to accept this loss would be any real benefit to the affected students. It's more like walking away from the problem cheap. Those kids needs effective help to catch up, not a waive.

 

[Office_Shredder]

School has a function of providing a different environment than (disadvantaged) home, so potentially bringing up students (giving a different norm, and with that: a chance, at least).
With that function gone (remote learning) no wonder the environment (background) becoming the dominant dividing factor again.

It's just I don't think modifying the standards to accept this loss would be any real benefit to the affected students. It's more like walking away from the problem cheap. Those kids needs effective help to catch up, not a waive.

Remember, most states do not require you to pass a test to graduate. Presumably the students in those states have the same issue, just no test. So what, specifically, is the problem with Oregon vs the rest of the country?

It would be crazy for Oregon alone to refuse to let people to graduate, right? Obviously the country as a whole didn't think these tests provided value before the pandemic anyway?

 

[jasonRF]

You are assuming the previous standard was the right one; therefore, eliminating it lowers the standards.

Due to the pandemic, many colleges waived the requirement for SAT scores, and some decided to do away with the requirement permanently. Did they lower their standards because students no longer had to achieve minimum SAT scores, or did they simply acknowledge that SAT scores were an outdated assessment for their purposes?

This is the most compelling type of argument to me. It just isn’t obvious how accurate it is for the case of using standardized tests to measure baseline competencies of most students. I’m assuming it depends on the details of Oregon’s test, how it is graded and how the teachers in that state teach to it. And of course for some learning disabled students - especially those that are not diagnosed so do not receive accommodations - such tests can be pretty meaningless. My brother was such a student, although you would never guess based on his career. We had no required tests when we graduated 30ish years ago. I doubt he would have graduated if it was determined by a test, and that would have thrown him onto a very different path. To me it seems at least possible that tests aren’t always so useful for other groups of students as well.

Nothing special about Oregon here, getting rid of test requirements to graduate has been going away in general.

If I recall correctly it was the No Child Left Behind act that prompted a lot of states to add tests; prior to that many states had no such requirements. I wonder how successful the various assessments the different states adopted have been.

As for the lost schooling due to COVID - and I have no doubt it is real (my high school junior certainly missed some math topics last year) - it seems to me that we need to address the problem instead of pretend it didn’t happen. At the same time it is not at all obvious to me what should be done. Perhaps have kids repeat the year? Given there is a lot of uncertainty around the upcoming school year makes it extra hard to think about what we should do. I’m just hoping we can convince people to adopt behaviors to give us the best chance of keeping schools in person this year to minimize additional losses. I’m not optimistic. This pandemic has convinced me that our culture in the US has become (or perhaps always was) extremely selfish. Apparently we would rather watch our neighbors die than wear a mask, skip a large gathering or get a vaccine. <end of rant>.

jason

 

[russ_watters]

You are assuming the previous standard was the right one; therefore, eliminating it lowers the standards.

Due to the pandemic, many colleges waived the requirement for SAT scores, and some decided to do away with the requirement permanently. Did they lower their standards because students no longer had to achieve minimum SAT scores, or did they simply acknowledge that SAT scores were an outdated assessment for their purposes?

The cynic in me believes that having objective standards limits the flexibility to do what they want. This issue is likely to be heard by the US Supreme Court in 2022 and based on its makeup I suspect it will rule in favor of objective standards and against subjective judgements and pre-defined outcomes. But we'll see.

 

[russ_watters]

It would be crazy for Oregon alone to refuse to let people to graduate, right? Obviously the country as a whole didn't think these tests provided value before the pandemic anyway?

Per above, the cynic in me thinks test are too rigid and objective, limiting the flexibility to achieve the desired result. What is the goal here? Is it teaching to a certain level or giving out diplomas? Why bother with grades at all? Why bother with school?

The fact that students didn't learn as well during the pandemic is a problem. Who is accountable for that? Who should be responsible for catching them up? Or is that not the goal?

 

[Rive]

So what, specifically, is the problem with Oregon vs the rest of the country?

Well, guess politics may disagree but covering the proof and alleviating the damage are supposed to be different concepts.

 

[vela]

I scanned the text of the bill, and Fox's coverage (or @phind's summary of the coverage) seems a bit misleading. The bill appears primarily to direct the Dept. of Education to review the current requirements to see if they make sense and are equitable. Boyle was likely referring to this aspect of the bill when he said it would benefit certain groups.

The bill also waives essential-skills requirements for students graduating in the 2021-2022, 2022-2023 or 2023-2024 school years, which is recognition that the pandemic threw a monkey wrench into the students' education.

 

[russ_watters]

The bill also waives essential-skills requirements for students graduating in the 2021-2022, 2022-2023 or 2023-2024 school years, which is recognition that the pandemic threw a monkey wrench into the students' education.

What exactly does that last bit mean? What problem are they trying to solve? I see two possibilities:
1. Insufficient education.
2. Insufficient number of students would graduate if the standard is applied.

It seems like everyone agrees #1 is a problem (you seem to have answered your questions from post #18), but suspending the standard doesn't address #1 it only addresses #2.

So essential skills aren't essential?

 

[Bandersnatch]

It seems like everyone agrees #1 is a problem (you seem to have answered your questions from post #18), but suspending the standard doesn't address #1 it only addresses #2.

An argument can be made here that by waiving the requirements the students will at least get the chance to make up for #1 in their further education. Maintaining the test requirements would bar a number of students from continuing their education due to no fault of their own. The pandemic-related hurdles being a form of force majeure here.

 

[russ_watters]

An argument can be made here that by waiving the requirements the students will at least get the chance to make up for #1 in their further education. Maintaining the test requirements would bar a number of students from continuing their education due to no fault of their own. The pandemic-related hurdles being a form of force majeure here.

I'm not sure I see any side of that:
a) Kids who are having difficulty passing the basic requirements for high school are unlikely to be college-bound.
b) If they are, but aren't ready for it, college can wait until they are ready.
c) Otherwise it's risky for the kid and unfair/burdensome for the college to have to get/provide the remedial education there.
d) It would be more direct to make up for insufficient high school education by providing additional high school education.

 

[Hornbein]

I expect organizations to mainly look out for their own interests, not of those they are allegedly serving. (This is pretty much the same as the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.)

 

[nsaspook]

Oregon is in the news but if you dig a little deeper I think you will find this is a national problem with a large increase of failing (or decreased grade) students due to distance-learning.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...re-failing-courses-creating-problems-colleges

One apparently widely ignored consequence of over a year of disrupted learning is a significant drop in grade point averages among a large number of high school juniors and seniors. In my conversations with affected students and in some surveys of academic progress in the spring and fall of 2020, it is clear that the drop-off is affecting the very students that selective colleges particularly have been trying to recruit: disadvantaged students, minorities, first-generation college students, rural students. Three questions immediately present themselves: What do the low grades actually mean for college admissions? Who is telling high school seniors what the new rules are? And what’s the perception of the students themselves about college?

COVID-induced distance learning has resulted in a significant increase in failure rates among a host of good to excellent students. Recent reports show that since spring 2020:

• In the Bay Area, a 50 percent increase in failing grades in some districts.
• In New Mexico, one school reported that 79 percent of students failed at least one class; across the state that number hovers at 40 percent.
• In Houston the failure rate was 42 percent.
• In St. Paul, 40 percent failed at least one class.
• In Kentucky, one high school reported that 65 percent of students failed at least one class; another school reported that among seniors 30 percent failed at least one class in fall 2020.
• Austin schools experienced a 70 percent jump in class failure rates between October 2019 and October 2020.
• Hawaii reported that 18 percent of seniors were off track to graduate because of at least one failure.

My kid was in advanced classed before the pandemic school lockout happened so while she did have reductions in learning they were mostly on advanced subjects for her current grade year.