Is Time an Irrational Concept in Space-Time Understanding?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of time within the framework of space-time, exploring whether time is an irrational concept. Participants examine the relationship between time and space, the definitions of discrete and continuous measurements, and the philosophical implications of these concepts. The conversation touches on theoretical and conceptual aspects of time and its representation in science.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the nature of time, describing it as both discrete and continuous, and questioning whether there is a solid understanding of time.
  • There is a comparison made between time and the mathematical concept of irrational numbers, suggesting that time may also be irrational in human understanding.
  • One participant argues that time is no more complicated than distance, proposing that both are continuous and infinite measurements.
  • Another participant references Einstein's work, suggesting that he significantly contributed to the understanding of time, indicating that there is substantial material available on the topic.
  • A book recommendation is made, highlighting a perspective on time that contrasts the common view of time as a flowing river with the idea of it being a frozen ocean where all events are embedded.
  • Some participants challenge the use of terms like "discrete" and "irrational," questioning the definitions and implications of these terms in the context of time and space.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between time as a coordinate system and distance as a metric, with differing opinions on whether philosophical significance should be attached to these concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of time and its relationship to space, with no consensus reached. Some agree on the complexity of time, while others challenge the definitions and implications presented. The discussion remains unresolved with competing perspectives on the significance of time and space.

Contextual Notes

Participants exhibit varying interpretations of terms such as "discrete," "continuous," and "irrational," leading to confusion and debate about their meanings in relation to time and space. The discussion reflects a lack of clarity and consensus on these foundational concepts.

shotgun
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It seems like human understanding of space can be no clearer than our understanding of time. I still don't understand time. On the one hand it is a discrete interval; but it is also continuous and infinite. All our science is based on an understanding of this time concept and its constructions.
Is there a solid understanding of time out there? What is it?
Much like PI is an irrational number (perhaps because it represents the relationship between the continuous length of a circle and the discrete length of its diameter) so it seems that time may also be irrational in our minds. If so, how could space-time be any different? Why don't scientists spend more time explaining time? And why is the art of science in its attempt to describe the world we live in defined as being "time-invariant"?
 
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What is the difference between distance and time? Both are measurements using some sort of measurement device. One is called a clock, the other could be any number of things. Distance, like time, is also continuous and infinite. (to our knowledge) In my opinion time is no more complicated than distance is.

Edit: We also just had a big thread on time get locked a little while back, so be warned this is a very touchy subject. The thread is here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=587235
 
Yes, I agree. And that was my point really - that space could not be less complicated than time.
 
by the way - thanks. I checked out the thread that you suggested, and certainly don't want to restart a heated debate that goes nowhere. I withdraw my original comments and label them as "not at all useful" (until such time as someone comes up with a shocking and useful new theory - and then I can say, "see - I knew it"!)
 
shotgun said:
It seems like human understanding of space can be no clearer than our understanding of time. I still don't understand time. On the one hand it is a discrete interval; but it is also continuous and infinite. All our science is based on an understanding of this time concept and its constructions.
Is there a solid understanding of time out there? What is it?
Much like PI is an irrational number (perhaps because it represents the relationship between the continuous length of a circle and the discrete length of its diameter) so it seems that time may also be irrational in our minds. If so, how could space-time be any different? Why don't scientists spend more time explaining time? And why is the art of science in its attempt to describe the world we live in defined as being "time-invariant"?

If Albert Einstein proved anything it was that time was not the simple and obvious concept everyone thought it was. He spent a great deal of his time explaining time. There is a great deal of material on this subject available. Check it out if you want to know more.
 
A good book on this topic is Brian Greene's "Fabric of the Cosmos". It explains our ideas of space/time and reality in a way that appeals to the layman. I was especially intrigued by the chapter on time, where it is mentioned that although we tend to think of time akin to a flowing river (based on our stream of experiences from past to present to future), in reality it is like a huge frozen ocean, an arena where all events of the past,present and future are embedded and it is our own human experience that moves from one point to the other in this block of ice.
 
On the one hand it is a discrete interval; but it is also continuous and infinite.

Much like PI is an irrational number (perhaps because it represents the relationship between the continuous length of a circle and the discrete length of its diameter)

Er...what? You keep using words like "discrete" and "continuous" and "irrational", but you seem to be operating under some very non-standard definitions (you're certainly not using them the same way mathematicians use them). Pi, like almost all real numbers, cannot be expression as a ratio of integers; there is no grand philosophical significance to this fact. And what would it mean, exactly, for space-time to be "irrational"?
 
The word i used was interval, I think. Never used the word integer. I don't have answers about what irrational space means - it's just my layman's term to convey a lack of clarity on the subject.
 
shotgun said:
The word i used was interval, I think. Never used the word integer. I don't have answers about what irrational space means - it's just my layman's term to convey a lack of clarity on the subject.

You drew a distinction between "discrete" and "continuous":

relationship between the continuous length of a circle and the discrete length of its diameter

Discrete is more usually used to describe for example the number of atoms in a molecule in the sense that each atom is a discrete entity hence it is associated with integers. Diameter and circumference are both real numbers so it is not clear what distinction you are drawing. Time intervals as far as we know are also continuous, no different to lengths in space.
 
  • #10
Yes, you are right. My distinctions are not very clear, and it does seem that time and distance are very similar, both conceptually irrational and real. Space-time therefore is also so is it not?
 
  • #11
Perhaps I am just saying stuff that everbody knows, but expressing it very inefficiently.
 
  • #12
shotgun said:
Yes, you are right. My distinctions are not very clear, and it does seem that time and distance are very similar, both conceptually irrational and real. Space-time therefore is also so is it not?

The problem here is that you're equivocating the bajeezus out of the word "irrational". You start out talking about "the irrationals", which are an uncountable subset of the reals that cannot be expressed as a ratio of integers, and you start talking about "the universe" being irrational. You seem to be trying to link the two, but it's not clear what this is supposed to mean.

Time is a coordinate system. Distance is a metric. There is no need to attach any sort of grand, philosophical significance to either of them.
 
  • #13
I respectfully disagree about the need to attach significance to the concepts of time and space. Certainly not all people need to do so, but some certainly should.
 
  • #14
Number Nine said:
Time is a coordinate system. Distance is a metric. There is no need to attach any sort of grand, philosophical significance to either of them.

I'm not sure this is correct. I believe time is included in the metric of General Relativity and that a coordinate system includes time and space both.
 

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