Is Universal Healthcare a Basic Human Right?

[vectorcube]

I am not sure why anyone would oppose universal healthcare. They have it in Europe, and the more advanced countries in Asia. There are a lot of people who are uninsured in the US. It is quite painful to me to see anyone would leave to his/her own disease if they have no money to pay their health insurence. I open mind to hear arguments from the opposing side.

 

[Cyrus]

Because there are people out there who believe in more than the sound bite catch phrase (1) "universal healthcare". We don't have the money to pay for it (2). Not everyone deserves healthcare (3).

 

[Pengwuino]

(2). Not everyone deserves healthcare (3).

Interesting that you were the one to say that...

 

[Cyrus]

Interesting that you were the one to say that...

Don't worry, you made the list of people not to get healthcare.

 

[Pengwuino]

It is quite painful to me to see anyone would leave to his/her own disease

Then you'll probably need to get doped up on morphine if you took the time to research and realize this happens even in nations with "universal healthcare". Do you realize per capita, the US spends the most on health care in the world? The US health care system needs major fixes, but spouting some, as cyrus puts it, sound bite that politicians use to garner votes is irresponsible and childish.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

I suggest a global piggy bank for health care. I'd put in 5 cents. Anyone else?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

http://www1.umn.edu/phrm/oaths/oath5.html

http://nktiuro.tripod.com/hippocra.htm

 

[Cyrus]

I suggest a global piggy bank for health care. I'd put in 5 cents. Anyone else?

I'll pass.

 

[vectorcube]

Because there are people out there who believe in more than the sound bite catch phrase (1) "universal healthcare". We don't have the money to pay for it (2). Not everyone deserves healthcare (3).

You see. Here is where i disagree. I think everyone deserve healthcare. I don` t agree you could partition people into two camps( when it comes to saving lifes).

 

[vectorcube]

Then you'll probably need to get doped up on morphine if you took the time to research and realize this happens even in nations with "universal healthcare". Do you realize per capita, the US spends the most on health care in the world? The US health care system needs major fixes, but spouting some, as cyrus puts it, sound bite that politicians use to garner votes is irresponsible and childish.

So you are saying there are countries with universal healthcare, but are not insuring everyone in their country? which countries?

I do hope the politician would fix the problem. I am not sure why it is irresponsible if it is a real problem that need to be fixed. What is the argument againist healthcare?

 

[vectorcube]

I suggest a global piggy bank for health care. I'd put in 5 cents. Anyone else?

It is better than none.

 

[vectorcube]

http://www1.umn.edu/phrm/oaths/oath5.html

http://nktiuro.tripod.com/hippocra.htm

Why this two links? How is this related to heathcare?

 

[cristo]

Not everyone deserves healthcare

What do you mean by "deserves"? Why wouldn't you think that everyone should be entitled to healthcare?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why wouldn't you think that everyone should be entitled to healthcare?

Well, it's Cyrus being Cyrus.

The problem is "entitled to healthcare" is not a black and white concept. What level of healthcare are people entitled to? Minimal care? Basic care? Where do you draw the line for the entitlement? How do you deal with finite resources?

 

[vectorcube]

Well, it's Cyrus being Cyrus.

The problem is "entitled to healthcare" is not a black and white concept. What level of healthcare are people entitled to? Minimal care? Basic care? Where do you
draw the line for the entitlement? How do you deal with finite resources?

I just don` t buy the finite resource reasoning. Countries in western europe is able to do it. So can we. I don` t like how you partition people to those that receive minimal, or most expensive healhcare, because you can`t compare the worth of a life. When it comes the basic necessities of life, and well being, everyone should have the best healthcare.

 

[cristo]

What level of healthcare are people entitled to?

You should be entitled to all the healthcare you need. Bluntly put, if something is wrong with me, and there is a way to fix it, then I should be entitled to it.

Where do you draw the line for the entitlement?

Draw the line for who is entitled, or draw the line for what they are entitled to?

When it comes the basic necessities of life, and well being, everyone should have the best healthcare.

Now that's just living in a dream world; plus you don't define "best". I live in western europe (UK). You shouldn't be under the impression that nationalised healthcare treats 100% of the population. Sure, you could have pretty much any procedure done on the NHS, but the waiting time is pretty long. Thus, the "best" healthcare is still correlated with wealth (obviously), but there aren't people who miss out on healthcare because they can't afford it.

 

[Hootenanny]

I just don` t buy the finite resource reasoning. Countries in western europe is able to do it. So can we.

Unfortunately, our (UK) healthcare system doesn't work particularly well. The UK is meant to have free healthcare, yet we have to pay for some services and all of our prescriptions. There have also been cases where patients have paid for treatments not available on the NHS (National Health Service), and then been refused standard treatments on the NHS with the reasoning that if they can afford to pay for one treatment, they should pay for all their treatments.

Another downside to the NHS is that we pay for the NHS through our income tax, which means that if you opt for health insurance you still have to pay tax towards the NHS.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You should be entitled to all the healthcare you need. Bluntly put, if something is wrong with me, and there is a way to fix it, then I should be entitled to it.

Suppose you (and 100 other people) need a new liver, and there are 10 available. Who gets them?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Why this two links? How is this related to heathcare?

?
They are thousands year old oaths taken by doctors.

Do not harden your heart [and turn it away] from pitying the poor and healing the needy

I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby, and I will seek the counsel of particularly skilled physicians where indicated for the benefit of my patient.

 

[cristo]

Suppose you (and 100 other people) need a new liver, and there are 10 available. Who gets them?

Well there would be some sort of priority list taking into account things like risk of death without a new liver, likelihood of patient to care for new liver, amount of time waiting, etc..

 

[octelcogopod]

I think universal healthcare is very important. At least the basics. This can really help out a society and make it a better place to live. I know plenty of people with different issues who can't afford to do anything about it. It's just wrong and whatever.

Those rich people who whine about it should think for a second, about all the money they actually have. Many have more than they will ever be able to spend, so why not give some of it back?
Maybe there's a severe 'screw them all' attitude i don't know..

 

[Vanadium 50]

Well there would be some sort of priority list taking into account things like risk of death without a new liver, likelihood of patient to care for new liver, amount of time waiting, etc..

Fair enough...but we've moved away from "all are entitled to everything". There are some things, like livers, where we simply don't have enough for everyone.

My point is that "everyone should have free access to everything" is not a reasonable plan. There are, even today and in the US, resource limitations that make this impossible. If you need, e.g. proton therapy, there are more patients than timeslots to treat them.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Those rich people who whine about it should think for a second, about all the money they actually have. Many have more than they will ever be able to spend, so why not give some of it back?

But how rich is rich?

In the election, the Obama campaign was asked by the Tribune whether a 20-year veteran of the Chicago police department married to a 20-year veteran of the Chicago public school system were considered "rich" (and thus subject to the additional taxes). The campaign declined to answer.

There are about 2.5 million millionaires in the US. The vast majority of them are people who have worked all their lives and are about to retire. The vast majority of them also have just barely one million dollars in net assets. BLS has nice statistics on this.

Let's assume the cost of universal health care is $600B over 10 years. If we have the millionaires pay it, it's $240,000 per person - or $480,000 per couple. Everyone will have to decide if this is fair or not for themselves; this is just how the numbers work out.

 

[cristo]

My point is that "everyone should have free access to everything" is not a reasonable plan.

Well of course, but then any plan summarised in a couple of words isn't reasonable To describe it another way, universal healthcare is a system in which money does not have any effect on whether or not you get a certain treatment. That is, all else being equal, someone with more money should not get a liver over a poorer person. That's what I mean by universal healthcare.. of course others' definitions will differ.

 

[Vanadium 50]

To describe it another way, universal healthcare is a system in which money does not have any effect on whether or not you get a certain treatment.

And if you want absolutely no effect, that means that it is forbidden for someone to pay for a treatment that is not available for free. I don't think anyone has established such a system. (Nor could they - if you're rich enough, you could fly somewhere else and have it done there)

 

[fleem]

I am not sure why anyone would oppose universal healthcare. They have it in Europe, and the more advanced countries in Asia. There are a lot of people who are uninsured in the US. It is quite painful to me to see anyone would leave to his/her own disease if they have no money to pay their health insurence. I open mind to hear arguments from the opposing side.

Everyone deserves a million dollars, too. Therefore the government should borrow and print more money for all of us, should it not? Also, if you believe the govt should force taxpayers to pay for other's benefits, may i ask how much of those others benefits you have already donated, considering you believe the govt should force us to pay, anyway? if you've not donated any substantial amount, then i find it hard to believe you really think everyone should be forced to donate. Or is what you really meant that others should be forced to donate more than should you?

 

[Evo]

There is already a thread on the healthcare issue in P&WA.