News Is Using Pain Rays in Prisons a Humane Alternative for Riot Control?

[nismaratwork]

Am I the only one who thinks this technology is laughable? It is easily beaten with protective shielding, and I can't see how you could use this to replace an armed guard, for example for perimeter defense. I also don't envision this being a portable device, as energy requirements are high and portability seems unlikely and expensive.

There is a reason why bean bags, tasers, and good old knuckle sandwhiches are used. They are effective and get to the point. Using an electromagnetic wave at a distance seems unreliable

Come to think of it, is there anything more hilarious than a group of aluminum-foil covered Mexicans crossing the desert under the Active Denial System? "La carne de burro no es transparente"

You can wear masks to defeat gas, or thick quilted armor to defeat a taser and bean-bag shots... the point is that your average mob doesn't set out to defeat such measures. If you have a group that is so well organized that they thought to shield against mm-wave "heat ray", you have more problems than just the failure of the device. I mean, shielding your face, and hands... that's a bit of a chore. If that were to happen, it doesn't mean you can't still deploy other LTL technologies. Your argument is analogous to saying that there should be only be howitzers, because pistols can be foiled. Really, it's just an argument for a more diverse arsenal.

 

[cronxeh]

You can wear masks to defeat gas, or thick quilted armor to defeat a taser and bean-bag shots... the point is that your average mob doesn't set out to defeat such measures. If you have a group that is so well organized that they thought to shield against mm-wave "heat ray", you have more problems than just the failure of the device. I mean, shielding your face, and hands... that's a bit of a chore. If that were to happen, it doesn't mean you can't still deploy other LTL technologies. Your argument is analogous to saying that there should be only be howitzers, because pistols can be foiled. Really, it's just an argument for a more diverse arsenal.

No. My argument is that you can't use this to replace a guard for perimeter defense in some cost cutting effort

 

[nismaratwork]

No. My argument is that you can't use this to replace a guard for perimeter defense in some cost cutting effort

Where is that argument being made, as opposed to it simply being another tool to use before live rounds?

 

[mugaliens]

Where is that argument being made, as opposed to it simply being another tool to use before live rounds?

Um, nowhere, actually. If I wanted to defeat this device I'd simply wear a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage" .

Fat chance on getting such a suit into the prison system, though, and that's what we're discussing, mostly is its use in the prison system, as per my OP.

But you're also correct with respect to the fact that 99.9% of rioters aren't going to be wearing Faraday suits.

 

[nismaratwork]

Um, nowhere, actually. If I wanted to defeat this device I'd simply wear a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage" .

Fat chance on getting such a suit into the prison system, though, and that's what we're discussing, mostly is its use in the prison system, as per my OP.

But you're also correct with respect to the fact that 99.9% of rioters aren't going to be wearing Faraday suits.

I for one, never leave home without my Faraday Cage. I'm all like, "dude, what if someone attacks me with a Van De Graff generator?" and they're all like, "Duuuude, totally." And then we riot... and for some reason we talk like surfer bums. It's all part of "the look".

Seriously however, your point is well taken, and if I remember correctly wire mesh isn't very good for visibility, or any defense against a guard punching you in the kidneys. In the context of prison, I can't help but think that this could have saved the lives of those 5 inmates in the recent riot, and given they were not on death-row, that's a priority.

 

[cronxeh]

I for one, never leave home without my Faraday Cage. I'm all like, "dude, what if someone attacks me with a Van De Graff generator?" and they're all like, "Duuuude, totally." And then we riot... and for some reason we talk like surfer bums. It's all part of "the look".

Seriously however, your point is well taken, and if I remember correctly wire mesh isn't very good for visibility, or any defense against a guard punching you in the kidneys. In the context of prison, I can't help but think that this could have saved the lives of those 5 inmates in the recent riot, and given they were not on death-row, that's a priority.

How would it have saved their live? How long do you think it would take to excite your molecules to the point that you feel the burning sensation to get out of there? I bet they could deliver 50 stabbings before that threshold is even reached.

 

[Proton Soup]

I for one, never leave home without my Faraday Cage. I'm all like, "dude, what if someone attacks me with a Van De Graff generator?" and they're all like, "Duuuude, totally." And then we riot... and for some reason we talk like surfer bums. It's all part of "the look".

Seriously however, your point is well taken, and if I remember correctly wire mesh isn't very good for visibility, or any defense against a guard punching you in the kidneys. In the context of prison, I can't help but think that this could have saved the lives of those 5 inmates in the recent riot, and given they were not on death-row, that's a priority.

how about a wet sheet/parka ? eye protection might be an issue, but there might be some fairly low-tech and inexpensive ways to reduce the weapon's effectiveness.

 

[nismaratwork]

how about a wet sheet/parka ? eye protection might be an issue, but there might be some fairly low-tech and inexpensive ways to reduce the weapon's effectiveness.

I don't know enough about the device, but again, that seems like it would be difficult to deploy in a prison context. You know the first thing that a prison does before a cell inspection? They shut off the water, so toilets cannot flush contraband. If defeating this requires covering yourself from head to toe in soaked sheets and other garments, you've already reduced the ability of a crowd or mob to do much. Besides, now you can deploy stingballs, or tasers, or CS gas or just having unencumbered guards kicking the **** out of people. Using this "ray" doesn't mean you suddenly lose access to the rest of your arsenal.

Cronxeh: Not long according to the data, and from seeing a demo. It seems to be in the area of a second or less. Have you bothered to research this at all before forming your apparent prejudice against this device? You also mention stabbings, when the issue here is that guards had to quell the riot using live rounds, not by enticing inmates to shiv each other.

Cronxeh, I'm really missing whatever point it is you're trying to make here. No one has said this is some magic cure for all violence, just a useful tool in the context of crowd control.

 

[mugaliens]

I for one, never leave home without my Faraday Cage. I'm all like, "dude, what if someone attacks me with a Van De Graff generator?" and they're all like, "Duuuude, totally." And then we riot... and for some reason we talk like surfer bums. It's all part of "the look".

Lol... :)

I can't help but think that this could have saved the lives of those 5 inmates in the recent riot, and given they were not on death-row, that's a priority.

I don't think anyone died during the recent Folsom prison riot. The article mentions that five live rounds were expended, and that some prisoners were hospitalized.

How would it have saved their live? How long do you think it would take to excite your molecules to the point that you feel the burning sensation to get out of there?

About 1/10th of a second. It's not a microwave - it doesn't cook your skiin. It's mm wave radar, and from what I understand it stimulates the nerves beneath your skin, causing a sensation like intense burning. It doesn't actually burn you.

I bet they could deliver 50 stabbings before that threshold is even reached.

Only if you're The Flash!

No one has said this is some magic cure for all violence, just a useful tool in the context of crowd control.

Bingo, and in the demos it works exceptionally well to instantly disperse a mob.

As for the wet sheet approach, I just don't know. It might be defeated with something as simple as aluminum foil. If they're not testing for ways to defeat it, they should, although I don't think anyone's going to share those results with the general public!

 

[nismaratwork]

Lol... :)



I don't think anyone died during the recent Folsom prison riot. The article mentions that five live rounds were expended, and that some prisoners were hospitalized.



About 1/10th of a second. It's not a microwave - it doesn't cook your skiin. It's mm wave radar, and from what I understand it stimulates the nerves beneath your skin, causing a sensation like intense burning. It doesn't actually burn you.



Only if you're The Flash!



Bingo, and in the demos it works exceptionally well to instantly disperse a mob.

As for the wet sheet approach, I just don't know. It might be defeated with something as simple as aluminum foil. If they're not testing for ways to defeat it, they should, although I don't think anyone's going to share those results with the general public!

I stand corrected! It turns out that 7 were injured and hospitalized, and 5 were hit by gunfire (not killed). The riot occurred in the prison yard, which I have to say, sounds like a pretty ideal place to use this mm-wave LTL weapon.

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92944&provider=top

I'm assuming more than 5 shots were fired, unless these guards were supreme marksman.

Cronxeh: That's 5 people shot, not stabbed or harmed by fellow inmates. Don't you think a pain-based dispersant is preferable to shooting people?!

 

[cronxeh]

I'm still missing the point of having this device. We send criminals to jail, the criminals kill each other, our expenses and fears go down. Economical.

We send criminals to jail, we buy expensive mm wave radar technology and install it in the yard, the inmates stop shanking each other in the yard but now do it in the shower instead, or in the mess, or just whenever it takes less than a second of execution and less than the amount it takes the guard to notice your intentions for planning.

My point is - what is the cost-benefit of this thing? It costs more than bullets, it delivers less desirable effects. We shouldn't encourage prison inmates to feel protected and safe. You pick up a newspaper in the morning with headlines like '5 inmates killed by prison guards during a riot' and you wonder.. 'good shoot', and 'i hope no guards got injured'

 

[Newai]

The abuse is inevitable, and we'll have to deal with that. But this direction is something I hope will find its way into the military. Fund this industry to shift the approach to war. Can we have a near future when wars are actually nonlethal?

 

[Newai]

I'm still missing the point of having this device. We send criminals to jail, the criminals kill each other, our expenses and fears go down. Economical.

Well, if you want to save cash, why not just have the police try and shoot perpetrators on the spot? That was the idea with Judge Dredd, after all.

But can you see the mayhem coming to a system where a man with a family waiting for him was serving time for a simple robbery, but was killed in such a prison?

 

[cronxeh]

Well, if you want to save cash, why not just have the police try and shoot perpetrators on the spot? That was the idea with Judge Dredd, after all.

But can you see the mayhem coming to a system where a man with a family waiting for him was serving time for a simple robbery, but was killed in such a prison?

Oh boohoo a family man was shot to death during a fight he was involved in at the prison court yard. Call the press. If you are unfortunate enough to keep making choices that lead you to commit crime- get caught- enter the prison- enter the yard - engage in a fight, then you should be unfortunate enough to get shot to death.

Do actions not have consequences anymore? What kind of nonsense is it when you can commit crime, be appoined a free lawyer, sent to prison and fed, clothed, provided with medical care, and even entertained and educated all at the expense of the society you commited crimes upon?

 

[Newai]

Oh boohoo a family man was shot to death during a fight he was involved in at the prison court yard. Call the press. If you are unfortunate enough to keep making choices that lead you to commit crime- get caught- enter the prison- enter the yard - engage in a fight, then you should be unfortunate enough to get shot to death.

Do actions not have consequences anymore? What kind of nonsense is it when you can commit crime, be appoined a free lawyer, sent to prison and fed, clothed, provided with medical care, and even entertained and educated all at the expense of the society you commited crimes upon?

So, if your father or son or wife/husband committed a minor crime (but enough to be sent to prison for a year or so) and was killed because some gangbanger wanted advancement in his circle, you'd go along with it?

 

[Newai]

I'd also like some assurance from you that if this became the norm, letting inmates have their way with each other, that the lawbreakers will not be any more inclined to kill their victims to avoid the harsher prison life you condone.

The justice system has been trying to fine-tune this balance for many years, and it's tricky.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm still missing the point of having this device. We send criminals to jail, the criminals kill each other, our expenses and fears go down. Economical.

We send criminals to jail, we buy expensive mm wave radar technology and install it in the yard, the inmates stop shanking each other in the yard but now do it in the shower instead, or in the mess, or just whenever it takes less than a second of execution and less than the amount it takes the guard to notice your intentions for planning.

My point is - what is the cost-benefit of this thing? It costs more than bullets, it delivers less desirable effects. We shouldn't encourage prison inmates to feel protected and safe. You pick up a newspaper in the morning with headlines like '5 inmates killed by prison guards during a riot' and you wonder.. 'good shoot', and 'i hope no guards got injured'

You're no longer making a reasonable argument about this device, just venting your spleen. I could argue, but you're not really arguing, so why bother when you just want to 'shoot em all and let god sort them out'... unless it's you I imagine, or your family and friends. At least all present can stop trying to reason with you; in this you are not reasonable or even on-topic.

 

[cronxeh]

So, if your father or son or wife/husband committed a minor crime (but enough to be sent to prison for a year or so) and was killed because some gangbanger wanted advancement in his circle, you'd go along with it?

Roll of a dice, yes.

You're no longer making a reasonable argument about this device, just venting your spleen. I could argue, but you're not really arguing, so why bother when you just want to 'shoot em all and let god sort them out'... unless it's you I imagine, or your family and friends. At least all present can stop trying to reason with you; in this you are not reasonable or even on-topic.

The argument is pretty simple, unless you can't follow the logic here: The device costs more than it benefits us as a society.

 

[Newai]

Roll of a dice, yes.

Oh good. Since we're leaving the fate of a convict to chance, why bother with sentencing at all? Because it doesn't matter to you what happens to them in prison, we can let the Magic 8-Ball decide their fates. And then we can ignore what kind of attitude the children of the now dead inmate will take to the justice system and fully expect that they will still obey and respect the law. Right, cronxeh? Such an approach to justice surely won't increase the crime rate. Right?

 

[cronxeh]

Oh good. Since we're leaving the fate of a convict to chance, why bother with sentencing at all? Because it doesn't matter to you what happens to them in prison, we can let the Magic 8-Ball decide their fates. And then we can ignore what kind of attitude the children of the now dead inmate will take to the justice system and fully expect that they will still obey and respect the law. Right, cronxeh? Such an approach to justice surely won't increase the crime rate. Right?

We have more people in prison than any other country, and a lot of them end up returning to prison. It is unsustainable to continue at this rate, and if it becomes economical to just kill them for a second offense, then I support that idea. And if their children become criminals, repeat and rinse.
Where do you get this idea that people are valuable? That somehow criminals have the same value as noncriminals??

It is easy to come up with 'humane' ethics if you are surrounded by peace and serenity. Once you experience crime first hand, experience being involved in a gun fight with bullets flying around you and chldren scattering away, you only want one thing - to have the shooter put down, period. No courts, no prison expenses, no long eulogy. Just aim and pull the trigger.

(wikipedia):

A 2002 study survey showed that among nearly 275,000 prisoners released in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison.

The average annual operating cost per state inmate in 2001 was $22,650, or $62.05 per day;

 

[Newai]

We have more people in prison than any other country, and a lot of them end up returning to prison. It is unsustainable to continue at this rate, and if it becomes economical to just kill them for a second offense, then I support that idea. And if their children become criminals, repeat and rinse.
Where do you get this idea that people are valuable? That somehow criminals have the same value as noncriminals??

It is easy to come up with 'humane' ethics if you are surrounded by peace and serenity. Once you experience crime first hand, experience being involved in a gun fight with bullets flying around you and chldren scattering away, you only want one thing - to have the shooter put down, period. No courts, no prison expenses, no long eulogy. Just aim and pull the trigger.

(wikipedia):

A 2002 study survey showed that among nearly 275,000 prisoners released in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison.

The average annual operating cost per state inmate in 2001 was $22,650, or $62.05 per day;

And with that I'd like to bring you back to something you maybe missed:

"I'd also like some assurance from you that if this became the norm, letting inmates have their way with each other, that the lawbreakers will not be any more inclined to kill their victims to avoid the harsher prison life you condone."

Where do you get this idea that people are valuable? That somehow criminals have the same value as noncriminals??

Where do you read that in my posts? If I thought they had the same "value," then I'd not support a justice system at all. Every one of my replies to your comments on this subject are to the contrary.

Anyway, you're not really answering my questions, but rather trying to appeal to my emotions. Not a solid line of reasoning.

 

[cronxeh]

First of all I did not see a question from you there, just a bunch of words strapped together by loose interpretation of my ideas. I left no "convict to chance", I already said if they are in prison (that is by the way after you are convicted), and you are in a fight, you should have the high probability of being shot to death (hence the roll of a dice).

I don't appeal to your emotions, I question the philosophy of those who pondered over ethics of humane treatment of people and animals, while themselves questionably been subject to violence. What kind of silly question is that? Assurances from me? I can assure you if I was the guard in that prison and the fight broke out, I would aim at the instigators and shoot to kill, that is all the assurances I can give since I am only responsible for my own actions.

For you to ask assurances from me on other people's actions is idiotic.

 

[Newai]

For you to ask assurances from me on other people's actions is idiotic.

I withdraw.

 

[nismaratwork]

I withdraw.

That is the only rational action to take when dealing with an irrational person who isn't really invested in a "conversation".

 

[mugaliens]

Do actions not have consequences anymore? What kind of nonsense is it when you can commit crime, be appoined a free lawyer, sent to prison and fed, clothed, provided with medical care, and even entertained and educated all at the expense of the society you commited crimes upon?

I'd much rather them exiting prison having learned an employable trade than having nothing and going right back into a life of crime.

 

[alt]

The average annual operating cost per state inmate in 2001 was $22,650, or $62.05 per day;

A lot cheaper than ours (probably economies of scale);

Prisoners in Australia
A snapshot of the Australian prison population as of 30 June 2004 (Australian Bureau of Statistics; ABS 2004a), showed that there were 24,171 adults held in custody in Australia. Australian prisons are, on average, currently operating at around maximum capacity (see SCRGSP 2005). The total expenditure on Australian prisons in the financial year 2003/04 was $1.6 billion, with the recurrent cost of maintaining a single prisoner averaged at $162 per day (SCRGSP 2005).

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/ncphome.nsf/Page/Publications_Intervention_for_prisoners_returning_to_the_community_a1-Introduction