Is Vagina Dentata a Real Condition?

[cronxeh]

Personal theories are not appropriate either. Either we have a proper reference or we don't.

Thats like asking for a reference that god doesn't exist.

"..the odontoblast intracellular pH was found to be 6.66±0.02"
"the pH in the extracellular predentin was higher than the intracellular pH, 7.00±0.02"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/387625t20l862w22/

Normal vaginal pH is 3.8 to 4.5

So unless you are packing yogurt in with sodium bicarbonate and supplemental calcium with odontoblasts, I don't see how this is anything but an urban myth. Although wait for the train of evolutionary biologists who will say 'well these are the normal operating pH values, you don't have any experimental data to suggest that dentin won't form at lower pH around 4.5"

 

[zomgwtf]

Anyways seeing as the google search for dermoid cysts and a link to a wiki page about dermoid cysts wasn't good enough. Must be a medical journal (even though wiki is used as a source COUNTLESS times on this forum)

Here's one I dug up specifically on a vaginal dermoid cyst:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/104083805/PDFSTART

Vaginal dermoid cyst is a rare finding.

The finding of a paravaginal cyst is not uncommon in
clinical examination, but making an accurate diagnosis
is sometimes difficult. Most of these cysts are either
derived from embryological remnants or are epithelial
inclusion cysts. We report the sonographic characteristics
of a vaginal lesion that was diagnosed histopathologically
as a rare dermoid cyst.

Next up I assume you want a source from a medical journal stating that dermoid cysts can form teeth?
Here's a case study of a man with a cyst in his cecum (intestine) and they specifically point out that there was:

No calcification, hair, teeth, or bone elements was detected.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12073078
Wonder why they would point that out?

Here's from a pamphlet on Ovarian Cysts:

Dermoid cysts form from a type of cell capable of developing into different kinds of tissue, such as skin, hair, fat, and teeth. Dermoid cysts may be present from birth but grow during a woman’s reproductive years. These cysts may be found on one or both ovaries. Dermoid cysts often are small and may not cause symptoms. If they become large, they may cause pain.

http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp075.cfm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thats like asking for a reference that god doesn't exist.

"..the odontoblast intracellular pH was found to be 6.66±0.02"
"the pH in the extracellular predentin was higher than the intracellular pH, 7.00±0.02"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/387625t20l862w22/

Normal vaginal pH is 3.8 to 4.5

So unless you are packing yogurt in with sodium bicarbonate and supplemental calcium with odontoblasts, I don't see how this is anything but an urban myth

I'm not asking for proof that this never occurs. I am asking for proof that it does. You made a definitive statement that is not directly supported by a proper medical reference.

You know how anyone can tell there is no such thing as Vagina Dentata? Vagina has an acidic environment which will destroy the dentin from forming.

QED.

No, not QED. That is an argument, not a fact.

 

[zomgwtf]

Thats like asking for a reference that god doesn't exist.

"..the odontoblast intracellular pH was found to be 6.66±0.02"
"the pH in the extracellular predentin was higher than the intracellular pH, 7.00±0.02"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/387625t20l862w22/

Normal vaginal pH is 3.8 to 4.5

So unless you are packing yogurt in with sodium bicarbonate and supplemental calcium with odontoblasts, I don't see how this is anything but an urban myth. Although wait for the train of evolutionary biologists who will say 'well these are the normal operating pH values, you don't have any experimental data to suggest that dentin won't form at lower pH around 4.5"

Or wait for someone to point out to you that it's inside a CYST. If you can understand what that means.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, there was a timing issue in that I was posting and editing off-topic posts while zomgwtf was posting the required links. The thread is open.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It seems to me that if there were any truth to the notion that men harbor a fear of the mythical vagina dentata they would not be so frequently eager to put their thing somewhere else where it is well documented there are teeth.

 

[zomgwtf]

It seems to me that if there were any truth to the notion that men harbor a fear of the mythical vagina dentata they would not be so frequently eager to put their thing somewhere else where it is well documented there are teeth.

Did you read the reports I posted?

First off paravaginal dermoid cysts are incredibly rare. The for them to have teeth in them isn't as common as them just have a clump of hair. So this means it would be even more rarer for teeth/bone matter to form in a paravaginal dermoid cyst. As far as I could tell there have only been 5 reported cases of dermoid cysts in recorded english medicine. The first one was from the late 1800s (I'm pretty sure). I would post some more reports but there are some quite graphic images of inside the vagina and the cyst/removal of the sebaeceous material.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Did you read the reports I posted?

First off paravaginal dermoid cysts are incredibly rare. The for them to have teeth in them isn't as common as them just have a clump of hair. So this means it would be even more rarer for teeth/bone matter to form in a paravaginal dermoid cyst. As far as I could tell there have only been 5 reported cases of dermoid cysts in recorded english medicine. The first one was from the late 1800s (I'm pretty sure). I would post some more reports but there are some quite graphic images of inside the vagina and the cyst/removal of the sebaeceous material.

I have no idea what this has to do with the comment I posted. My remark is completely neutral toward your posts.

 

[zomgwtf]

I have no idea what this has to do with the comment I posted. My remark is completely neutral toward your posts.

You're trying to make it look like 'vagina dentata' is a mythical occurance and this is shown by how easily guys can toss it aside and have sex unafraid of teeth. That's what I understood at least.

If you're just saying that men aren't afraid of vagina dentata then I don't see the point in your post.

 

[Borek]

You want zooby's post to be parallel to the thread, while it is perpendicular.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You're trying to make it look like 'vagina dentata' is a mythical occurance and this is shown by how easily guys can toss it aside and have sex unafraid of teeth. That's what I understood at least.

If you're just saying that men aren't afraid of vagina dentata then I don't see the point in your post.

Yeah, sort of, you mostly got it right, vaguely.

What I'm saying is that men are usually pretty enthusiastic about women performing oral sex on them. It's well documented that women have teeth in their mouths. So, why would men be afraid of teeth in the vagina? Eh?

 

[zomgwtf]

Yeah, sort of, you mostly got it right, vaguely.

What I'm saying is that men are usually pretty enthusiastic about women performing oral sex on them. It's well documented that women have teeth in their mouths. So, why would men be afraid of teeth in the vagina? Eh?

OH, Sorry I missed the 'somewhere' else part of it... I didn't know you were talking about a comparisson to oral sex. . My bad. I think since the vagina is 'tighter' and can't be opened up to have the teeth not touch though makes it different... I mean I think it would definitely hurt to have vaginal sex and have your penis rub against a tooth or bone inside there.

 

[zoobyshoe]

OH, Sorry I missed the 'somewhere' else part of it... I didn't know you were talking about a comparisson to oral sex. . My bad. I think since the vagina is 'tighter' and can't be opened up to have the teeth not touch though makes it different... I mean I think it would definitely hurt to have vaginal sex and have your penis rub against a tooth or bone inside there.

You forced me to vivisect a perfectly good witticism. You'll pay for THAT, young man, you'll pay for THAT!

 

[zomgwtf]

You forced me to vivisect a perfectly good witticism. You'll pay for THAT, young man, you'll pay for THAT!

ugh. Hopefully later then sooner.

 

[zoobyshoe]

ugh. Hopefully later then sooner.

I kid. I kid.

 

[GeorginaS]

Sly commentary loses all impact if one needs to unpack it. Although zomgwtf's misunderstanding was pretty funny all on its own. Sort of a "who's on first" routine.

And, yes, I have absolutely nothing to add to the actual subject matter presented here.

 

[Shalashaska]

I always thought this was simply a Freudian/Jungian concept. Seems a bit like trying to find Noah's Ark, it misses the point. I would add that while men are eager to place their manhood so to speak, near teeth, there is the implicit understanding that the man or woman involved would have to bite them. Consider how many stories you hear about unpleasant oral experiences, and then remove the need to bite and add the surprise factor of a toothy nether region and yeah, on its face that's a whole different game.

Besides, one is in a fairly submissive position if you're performing oral sex, compared to vaginal intercourse, and men have mouths which are familiar. Biting someone's genitals is a pretty extreme thing, and I believe all parties involved know that. Compare that to the implicit "sneak attack" of mythical toothed vaginas. Some women have issues with the penis, some men have issues with the vagina; for all that we are hopefully intimately familiar with alternative equipment, it's not the same as having it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Sly commentary loses all impact if one needs to unpack it.

If only my audience got my jokes, I'd be a great comedian.

 

[Shalashaska]

If only my audience got my jokes, I'd be a great comedian.

By that logic, Andy Kaufman wasn't a great comedian. Give yourself more credit.

 

[cronxeh]

If only my audience got my jokes, I'd be a great comedian.

You had me laughing for like 10 seconds man, it was good. I'd just be careful as Ivan is deleting posts left and right from this thread that are off-topic, granted zomgwtf keeps posting stuff that has nothing to do with literal Vagina Dentata.

And as for zomgwtf: I know what a cyst is, and as I said before, a cyst does not count as part of an organ, therefore you should stop bringing it up here, especially since it is not in any way calcified matter and does not even come close to be classified as teeth.

As far as I'm concerned unless someone posts an actual case study of a solid matter that was growing in the vaginal lining, be it cancer or some strange bacterial mutation, Vagina Dermata is an urban myth.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It seems that I really had an off day yesterday.

I agree that we have not seen a credible source confirming this claim. We have links that discuss vaginal cysts, and links that talk about hair and teeth growing from cysts, but nothing that I have seen confirms that teeth have ever been found in vaginal cysts. I had misread a link that zomgwtf sent by PM.

There is the med link that I posted in which one doctor conveys an anecdotal account sent by another doctor, but the account is purely anecdotal.

 

[Shalashaska]

It seems that I really had an off day yesterday.

I agree that we have not seen a credible source confirming this claim. We have links that discuss vaginal cysts, and links that talk about hair and teeth growing from cysts, but nothing that I have seen confirms that teeth have ever been found in vaginal cysts. I had misread a link that zomgwtf sent by PM.

There is the med link that I posted in which one doctor conveys an anecdotal account sent by another doctor, but the account is purely anecdotal.

Sounds like the Voynich Manuscript's history. I think it's worth pointing out that this is a myth with many incarnations throughout history. In no way is it meant to be taken as anything except myths, phobias, or some Freudian/Jungian concept.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sounds like the Voynich Manuscript's history. I think it's worth pointing out that this is a myth with many incarnations throughout history. In no way is it meant to be taken as anything except myths, phobias, or some Freudian/Jungian concept.

I know that the psychological angle on this is one issue, and the mythical history is another, but we do have a doctor claiming other doctors have seen this. We also know that it could be possible. I don't think we can conclude that there is no evidence to support the claim; not yet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...So this woman had one in the pelvic region and the cyst grew teeth, and when it ruptured through the wall where her uterus joins her vagina - there were the teeth. In my practice once, I saw one in the eyelid...

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/13198.html

 

[Shalashaska]

I know that the pyschological angle on this is another issue, but we do have a doctor claiming other doctors have seen this. I don't think we can conclude that there is no evidence to support the claim; not yet.

I would put forth the notion that if such evidence existed, it would have been published. Frankly, such a cyst in the vagina would be painful and noticeable, long before anything like a tooth developed. Remember also, that a tooth in the vagina would chaff or scratch the woman in question. In the case of a newborn, this would certainly be published. It's not unheard of for a baby to be born with a dermoid cyst of the ovary, and you never know what you'll find in them. That's nothing like a tooth protruding through the vaginal walls.

I've searched the JAMA archives, and there is no record at all of Vagina Dentata as anything except a psychological issue. Anecdotes two or three times removed are meaningless without corroboration. There is no doubt at all that women can develop or be born with dermoid cysts in the vagina, but is THAT really vagina dentata? A tooth-like calcification entombed in a cyst is a far cry from a tooth lined vagina. Frankly, I suspect the issue arises from the appearance of the entrance to the vagina, with its ridges and crenelations.

 

[Shalashaska]

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/13198.html

So this woman had one in the pelvic region and the cyst grew teeth, and when it ruptured through the wall where her uterus joins her vagina...

Again, that's not really vagina dentata, or even a vaginal cyst. He's describing rupture by the teeth or penetration of tissues by the cyst, through vaginal wall. The cysts probably began on an ovary. His story is interesting, but after his brief sobriquet all he really presents is a common folktale and myth, and is a long way from a cyst. No one is disputing the existence of dermoid cysts, but to be vagina dentata, I think we need to be talking about teeth in the vagina, not a growth.

That, and without publishing his findings in a manner other than a health blog, it's just not scientific.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Again, that's not really vagina dentata, or even a vaginal cyst. He's describing rupture by the teeth or penetration of tissues by the cyst, through vaginal wall. The cysts probably began on an ovary. His story is interesting, but after his brief sobriquet all he really presents is a common folktale and myth, and is a long way from a cyst. No one is disputing the existence of dermoid cysts, but to be vagina dentata, I think we need to be talking about teeth in the vagina, not a growth.

That, and without publishing his findings in a manner other than a health blog, it's just not scientific.

I already specified that it is an anecdotal account, but it comes from a medical source, so I'm not inclined to ignore the claim entirely.

Also, if this condition occurs from time to time, it certainly has a cause that makes sense, so I hardly consider objections to the cause to be reason to reject the claim. Cysts or rare medical aberrations could be sources for some myths and folklore.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I would put forth the notion that if such evidence existed, it would have been published.

Have you reviewed all of the medical literature, globally? I don't know when we can claim that all possible sources of validation for this claim have been exhausted, do you?

 

[zomgwtf]

granted zomgwtf keeps posting stuff that has nothing to do with literal Vagina Dentata.

Who are you again? What have you added here? The cysts are a real possible answer to what has a common name as Vagina Dentata. There is NO such thing as 'vagina dentata' in medicine so I don't know why you're talking about 'literal vagina dentata' for. Do you even understand the 'legend/myth'? What I am posting is the only plausible reason of what this could be from my personal knowledge of biology and medicine. This logic has been shared by a few other people who have already posted here including a doctor.

And as for zomgwtf: I know what a cyst is, and as I said before, a cyst does not count as part of an organ, therefore you should stop bringing it up here, especially since it is not in any way calcified matter and does not even come close to be classified as teeth.

Who ever said that the teeth were 'part of' the vagina? I don't recall that being stated. I do recall being stated that they were IN the vagina. Of course teeth aren't part of the vagina. Since you seem to know 'oh-so-much-more' than I do about these cysts can you provide to me a method by which these specific cysts are detected? For instance if a dermoid cyst was thought to be in the ovaries what would be a simple and non-invasive(pretty much) procedure that would be able to detect it?

As well: Again who are you? I hardly think you're in a position to tell me what to stop posting.

As far as I'm concerned unless someone posts an actual case study of a solid matter that was growing in the vaginal lining, be it cancer or some strange bacterial mutation, Vagina Dermata is an urban myth.

That's nice that you hold the opinion that teeth have never been observed in the vagina. How about you just say that instead of constantly throwing these feeble attacks at what I presented to show that teeth in the vagina is plausible and possible.

Also since what I had posted earlier was challeneged and I required to post medical citations I'm going to ask the same of you. I challenge you. Provide sources to back up your claim that dermoid cysts have nothing to do with the myth vagina dentata. Provide sources that what grows inside of a cyst can not be classified as a tooth and evidence showing that calcified substances do not occur inside cysts.

EDIT: Removed insult. hmph.

 

[zomgwtf]

I agree that we have not seen a credible source confirming this claim. We have links that discuss vaginal cysts, and links that talk about hair and teeth growing from cysts, but nothing that I have seen confirms that teeth have ever been found in vaginal cysts. I had misread a link that zomgwtf sent by PM.

There have only been 5 paravaginal dermoid cysts observed in recorded english medicine. I've sent you two reports of them and posted one here (the other had graphic images). It's pretty unlikely that one of those had developed teeth. The two reports I read they had grown long clumps of hair.

You do concede, unlike cronxeh though, that dermoid cysts do present a plausible explanation for Vagina Dentata?