News Labor in America – What is the future?

[russ_watters]

I think most union workers simply want fair pay for an honest day of hard work.

There is a big difference between union workers and unions. Unions are labor monopolies and political machines. They do not exist for the sake of the workers anymore (edit: caveat - I'm speaking particularly of construction unions. Not all unions are the same). Unions are destroying the economy of Philadelphia, in particular. The Convention Center, for example... (and more).

And fair pay...?

So, do you think American labor should compete with cheap labor in other countries making $2/hour, or perhaps you would be willing to work for $2/hour too so that the U.S. can be competitive in the global market?

I'll post the pay rates of union workers in Philly when I get to work tomorrow. You're off by more than an order of magnitude - and that's just for the completely unskilled workers. Who knew a ditch-digger is worth more than an engineer...?

The reality of what unions are is far from the they-only-try-to-get-what's-fair liberal doctrine people believe.

No matter what your current view of the labor unions, the historical fact is that the unions brought American workers out of the dark ages in the workplace.

Well, that's exactly the point: unions had a purpose and that purpose is gone. That is why unions are floundering. People recognize that in today's world, they do more harm than good.

 

[SOS2008]

There is a big difference between union workers and unions. Unions are labor monopolies and political machines.

Agreed.

And fair pay...? I'll post the pay rates of union workers in Philly when I get to work tomorrow. You're off by more than an order of magnitude - and that's just for the completely unskilled workers. Who knew a ditch-digger is worth more than an engineer...?

The workers in Philly and ditch-diggers in the U.S. are not what I was addressing. My point is that labor in the U.S. is expected to compete with cheap labor, child labor, sweat shops, etc. in the global market (how our country used to be before unions). Not only is this unfair, but it's wrong in those countries as much as it's wrong in our country.

The reality of what unions are is far from the they-only-try-to-get-what's-fair liberal doctrine people believe. Well, that's exactly the point: unions had a purpose and that purpose is gone. That is why unions are floundering. People recognize that in today's world, they do more harm than good.

With outsourcing of U.S. jobs, unfair trade agreements, illegal immigration, etc., who speaks on behalf of labor now? The split of unions is being referred to as a revolt in the news, and rightfully so. I also think it may become a new, modern way for American workers to protect themselves from companies that have become less loyal to employees, greedy, and corrupt. A balance is always needed, and it's time for the pendulum to swing back in labor's favor.

 

[BobG]

There is a big difference between union workers and unions. Unions are labor monopolies and political machines. They do not exist for the sake of the workers anymore (edit: caveat - I'm speaking particularly of construction unions. Not all unions are the same). Unions are destroying the economy of Philadelphia, in particular. The Convention Center, for example... (and more).

And fair pay...? I'll post the pay rates of union workers in Philly when I get to work tomorrow. You're off by more than an order of magnitude - and that's just for the completely unskilled workers. Who knew a ditch-digger is worth more than an engineer...?

The reality of what unions are is far from the they-only-try-to-get-what's-fair liberal doctrine people believe. Well, that's exactly the point: unions had a purpose and that purpose is gone. That is why unions are floundering. People recognize that in today's world, they do more harm than good.

Union leadership is retained when they get results for the workers paying their salary. In other words, it's hard to separate the two.

Which is why your comment about unions being political machines is very accurate. The union workers retain the leadership that brings in the short term results. There is no reward for union leadership to develop a long term non-zero sum strategy that works for both the management and the employees.

It isn't so much that the purpose of labor unions is gone. It's the fact that a one-dimensional union has a set limit on its worth. They pull labor conditions up when conditions are too bad - they pull labor conditions down when conditions are too good. Considering the downward pull is usually elimination of the job entirely, I think the statement that they tend to do more harm than good today is accurate.

 

[BobG]

And yes, let's remember that employees pay into these systems, so it should be a little more than a promise.

Don't you ever believe Bush?

I think younger workers—first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government—promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is."—Washington, D.C., May 4, 2005

At least I think he meant, that is, he thinks, or talks, but doesn't think... what the heck did he say?

 

[solutions in a box]

Yes, I've had problems with American made autos. I'm happy with my Nissan, and so far my Dell too.
Exactly.
Thanks. And yes, let's remember that employees pay into these systems, so it should be a little more than a promise.

By the way your Nissan was manufactured in Tennesse. My Honda minivan was built in Alabama.

The Japanese companies treat their workers with respect and they have; good health care,
guaranteed retirement benefits, and worker loyalty.

The Japanese auto companies are strong because their goal has been to build an excellent product.

General Motors is in trouble because they have been focused on trying to please their stock holders.

 

[SOS2008]

Don't you ever believe Bush?

I suspect Barbara never told Georgie boy the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

At least I think he meant, that is, he thinks, or talks, but doesn't think... what the heck did he say?

I was watching Hillary Clinton's speech in Aspen on C-SPAN. In the Q&A she answered questions, speaking freely and at length, and it was apparent that she was well informed (obviously so about legal matters such as the Supreme Court), etc. It was quite a refreshing change.

By the way your Nissan was manufactured in Tennesse. My Honda minivan was built in Alabama.

True now, though this is still done with Japanese quality standards/control. Though the profits go back to Japan, at least Americans have jobs?

The Japanese companies treat their workers with respect and they have; good health care,
guaranteed retirement benefits, and worker loyalty.

The Japanese auto companies are strong because their goal has been to build an excellent product.

Yes, but in all fairness, I believe the auto industry in Japan also has been subsidized...

 

[Art]

And fair pay...? I'll post the pay rates of union workers in Philly when I get to work tomorrow. You're off by more than an order of magnitude - and that's just for the completely unskilled workers. Who knew a ditch-digger is worth more than an engineer...?

That depends on how good the ditch-digger is at his job and the engineer at is. I've known engineers who were so bad as to be unbelievable and sometimes paying them a crap salary is a nice way of persuading them to leave.

BTW are you an engineer Russ?

 

[russ_watters]

Though the profits go back to Japan, at least Americans have jobs?

Being a liberal, I'd think that would please you very much...

 

[russ_watters]

As promised (threatened?), below are some hourly wages of Philadelphia union workers (actually, they are "prevailing wages" - wages that must be paid if workers are non-union on a union job). Some categories have multiple levels - all levels shown are the lowest of their class. Rates are the hourly pay rate only - benefits are an additional ~50-75%.

Bricklayer: $31.06
Drapery Installer: $26.15
Electric Lineman: $36.50
Electrician: $40.01
Laborer: $20.50
Landscape Laborer: $16.88 (this is the lowest rate in the book)
Painter: $28.00
Heavy/Highway laborer: $16.35 (there are 14 classes, most are around $22)
Plumber: $37.33

 

[SOS2008]

Being a liberal, I'd think that would please you very much...

Since liberals have become the fiscal conservatives in this country, I'd prefer the manufacturing to be owned by a U.S. company so that the profits stayed here in the U.S. economy. In the case of the auto industry, they lost the competitive edge because of poor quality workmanship. This helps make the case against the old union ways--As I've said, there needs to be a balance.

 

[russ_watters]

But profits contribute to income inequality, since they go to management and shareholders. How do you reconcile that with liberalism?

 

[SOS2008]

As promised (threatened?), below are some hourly wages of Philadelphia union workers (actually, they are "prevailing wages" - wages that must be paid if workers are non-union on a union job). Some categories have multiple levels - all levels shown are the lowest of their class. Rates are the hourly pay rate only - benefits are an additional ~50-75%.

Bricklayer: $31.06
Drapery Installer: $26.15
Electric Lineman: $36.50
Electrician: $40.01
Laborer: $20.50
Landscape Laborer: $16.88 (this is the lowest rate in the book)
Painter: $28.00
Heavy/Highway laborer: $16.35 (there are 14 classes, most are around $22)
Plumber: $37.33

Some of these jobs are 'skilled', and most of the other jobs are being done by illegals now...but for Americans who still have such jobs, how many are making above a 18,000-35,000 poverty level income (based on the typical family of four)?

But profits contribute to income inequality, since they go to management and shareholders. How do you reconcile that with liberalism?

Okay Russ, it's better for the profits to go off shore along with other manufacturing.

 

[russ_watters]

...but for Americans who still have such jobs, how many are making above a 18,000-35,000 poverty level income (based on the typical family of four)?

These numbers are real pay rates, SOS. All of them are making above $18,000 when you use the base pay only and all but two (the lowest of the unskilled laborers) are making above $35,000. And how is the poverty level relevant to anything? Holding that stop/slow sign on a road just plain isn't worth $18 an hour (much less with benefits). People don't and should not get paid based on what the poverty line is set at, they do and should get paid based on what the job/their work is worth.

Getting paid an artificially high salary is harmful to the economy as a whole and though its nice for the person who is getting it in the short term, it hurts everyone in the long term.

...and most of the other jobs are being done by illegals now...

That isn't legal (no, that isn't a pun): unions don't emply illegal aliens.

 

[alexandra]

The question in my mind is not so much the effects of union splits, but why. Union membership has dropped from something like 35% down to 8%, and it seems labor wants to regain power again. Perhaps we are seeing the beginning of revolt as it were, and hopefully this will carry through to a changing of the guard at the election polls in 2006 and 2008. Maybe this is good, not bad.

Here are a couple of links to analyses giving a different view on this issue, Informal:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/aflc-j26.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/aflc-j27.shtml

 

[Townsend]

Okay Russ, it's better for the profits to go off shore along with other manufacturing.

You seem to have contradictory views...you cannot have equality of result and equality of opportunity. Doing one undoes the other...sending profits overseas will create you equality of result as no one can get rich off of the profits. Now you say you want people to get rich off of the profits? You're more confusing than Hilary Clinton at this point...

 

[2CentsWorth]

You seem to have contradictory views...you cannot have equality of result and equality of opportunity. Doing one undoes the other...sending profits overseas will create you equality of result as no one can get rich off of the profits. Now you say you want people to get rich off of the profits? You're more confusing than Hilary Clinton at this point...

What?

 

[Townsend]

What?

Was I not clear? Perhaps I am mistaken...but everything I have seen so far leads me to believe that liberals think that equality of result is important...If I am wrong about that let me know now...I have been rooting for the wrong team if that is the case.

 

[SOS2008]

...unions don't emply illegal aliens.

One good thing about unions, huh? They actually check the validity of ID? As I said, when an illegal presents a U.S. birth certificate, yet still can't speak any English at the age of 30, hmm...would that be a red flag?

Actually I'm pleased to see the conservatives in this forum remain entrenched regarding American workers. If this is the Republican attitude, I can feel fairly certain the GOP will not gain the votes of labor unions, or others (including some conservatives) who are against outsourcing of American jobs, including trade agreements such as CAFTA, illegal immigration, etc. The GOP will remain oblivious to the labor movement the same way the liberals were about the fundamentalist movement.

Was I not clear? Perhaps I am mistaken...but everything I have seen so far leads me to believe that liberals think that equality of result is important...If I am wrong about that let me know now...I have been rooting for the wrong team if that is the case.

No, your conclusion does not make sense, and unless I've missed something in a post somewhere I'm not sure where you're drawing your conclusion from. Who have you been rooting for--liberals?

As for Hillary, don't get too excited (though it's entertaining). She may be the front runner at this time, but that's not the same as a shoe in. There are many other very good candidates such as Biden, Durbin, Bayh, etc. who far surpass Dubya, and even a McCain or Guliani. But it's okay with me if you want to keep obsessing about Hillary.

 

[Smurf]

Was I not clear? Perhaps I am mistaken...but everything I have seen so far leads me to believe that liberals think that equality of result is important...If I am wrong about that let me know now...I have been rooting for the wrong team if that is the case.

To try to clarify, when you say "Equality of result" What is that? is it that everyone ends up with the exact same house, the exact same car, the exact same pay, get's to go on summer vacations for the same amount of time, same number of hours, same tv stations ... ect?

We're not Soviets Towny.

(wait.. do I even qualify as a liberal any more?)

 

[Townsend]

Who have you been rooting for--liberals?

The side that champions equality of opportunity...protection of the individual from the tyranny of faction...individual liberty.

Who ever supports those the gets my vote...I start the ranking with individual liberty, then equality of opportunity and last protection from the emotional whims of faction.

 

[Smurf]

I think a lot of people get 'equality of opportunity' mixed up with 'freedom of opportunity'.

 

[Townsend]

I think a lot of people get 'equality of opportunity' mixed up with 'freedom of opportunity'.

Perhaps...what I mean is that everyone gets to do the best that they can with whatever have available at their disposal. For some people that is not much and for others it is a whole lot. We should not try to level this playing field to make life a fair race for everyone. Moreover, in the end, we do not need to all have more or less the same result either. We can have rich, middle class and poor and that is ok. It has been that way since the very first civilization. It is the driving force behind a material driven world.

Regards,

 

[Smurf]

Yeah, what I thought. Equality of Opportunity means a level playing field.

 

[solutions in a box]

Unions getting back to the future

The Unions and industry boomed after WWII. At that time unions were not an issue.
The decline of the unions began almost 25 years ago when Ronald Reagan fired over 10,000 union air traffic controllers. None of them were allowed to be rehired as non union controllers. It has been a long downhill slide ever since.
Corporations now realize that they can fire the union workers and hire replacements.

At the current time for instance, Union mine workers in Arizona are on strike against Asarco copper corp.
The union miners have worked for the last three years without a contract and without a pay raise. Asarco wants to freeze pay at the current level.
This despite the fact that copper is selling at an all time high.

Asarco (which is owned by Groupo Mexico) is threatening to fire the workers and bring in workers from Groupo mines in Mexico.

Is this fair? Not hardly. This is about what is fair for American workers and the future of the country.
I personally think that if you add one dollar to all of the socioeconomic high talk, you still just end up with a bad cup of coffee at Denny's.

 

[SOS2008]

The side that champions equality of opportunity...protection of the individual from the tyranny of faction...individual liberty.

Who ever supports those the gets my vote...I start the ranking with individual liberty, then equality of opportunity and last protection from the emotional whims of faction.

Using your words of "individual liberty" here are a few sites that come up on the first page:

Individual rights
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

"Individual rights" is a legal term referring to what one is allowed to do and what can be done to an individual. Police states are generally considered to be oppressive because they offer their citizens few individual rights. [e.g., Patriot Act].

...For example, it has been argued that the people are less likely to violate the law if they believe that the legal system is likely to punish them if they actually violated the law and not punish them if they did not violate the law. By contrast, if the legal system is arbitrary then an individual has no incentive to actually follow the law. [e.g., illegal immigration]

People who argue that individual rights are more important than social control are called, "individual rights advocates". This school of thought holds that it is better to let a criminal go free; than to execute, imprison, or otherwise punish an innocent person. Advocates tend to argue for increased civil rights. This is traditionally associated with liberalism.

http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=2078594106540&lang=en-US&FORM=CVRE

Civil Liberties - It Was Too Good To Be True

Earlier today I blogged that there were serious rumors that the next nomination to the Supreme Court was to be Edith Brown Clement. It seemed too good to be true - a judge with strong view on personal privacy and a solid professional track record.

Alas, it was but a pipe dream. Instead Bush announced his nomination of John G. Roberts, Jr, a clearly neocon judge with strong anti-abortion views. There is no joy in civil liberties tonight. With the current make up of the Senate, it's likely that Roberts will end up as another nail in the coffin of our freedoms and rights.

http://civilliberty.about.com/

Then using your words of "equality of opportunity":

http://www.nul.org/instituteforopportunityandequality.html

Dedicated to the pursuit of economic self-reliance and equal opportunity for African Americans, the Institute's work concentrates on such key issues as employment and workforce development, education, housing, criminal justice, economic and community development and macroeconomic policy.

http://www.womensedge.org/index.jsp

If the world wants to eradicate poverty, we need to start by first investing in the economic empowerment of women, who constitute more than 70% of the world's poorest people.

http://www.equaleducation.org/

Can Separate Be Equal? The Overlooked Flaw at the Center of No Child Left Behind - Part of The Century Foundation's Reality Check series, this report examines how the No Child Left Behind Act fails to address a major cause of failing schools: concentrated poverty...

http://www.equipforequality.org/

Find answers to a variety of disability related concerns, including information on how to seek individual assistance with disability-related rights issues, information on legislation and public policy that impacts the disability community, training to help you advocate for your own disability rights in a variety of circumstances, and information on ensuring that people with disabilities remain safe in the wide variety of settings where they live and work. This site also maintains a wealth of links and documents related to disability rights issues in its Resource Center.

http://www.equipforequality.org/

I'm not sure what you mean by emotional whims of factions, but I'll assume a good example would be the fundamentalist Christians. I guess you're rooting for liberals?

 

[loseyourname]

IMO if a US company was to set up a car manufacturing plant using the Dell business model he would literally wipe the floor with his competition both at home and internationally all else being equal.

Sell cheap, customizable cars online and ship them directly to the customer for the prices they currently offer to dealers? No more test-drives? I can imagine you'd run into some difficulties as it takes a while longer to build a car than it takes to build a computer, but you could still be on to something. If you really believe in this idea, why not find some investors and put together a pitch? Heck, convince me and I'll go find some investors.

 

[Smurf]

You wouldn't have nearly as much flexibility as Dell does with computers. but it has potential. Ha! It could be the next big step in car manufacturing, you never know if you might be responsible for standardizing generic auto parts.

 

[SOS2008]

People are already buying cars online in increasing numbers.

 

[FredGarvin]

You wouldn't have nearly as much flexibility as Dell does with computers. but it has potential. Ha! It could be the next big step in car manufacturing, you never know if you might be responsible for standardizing generic auto parts.

Actually, if you take into account things like color, 2-door vs. 4 door, engine/drivetrain options, interior options, etc... current vehicle lines are vastly more complicated and flexible in terms of options than a computer.

IMO...

From personal experience, I can tell you that the ideology and attitudes between US automakers and foreign automakers could not be more polar opposites. When I was in a plant, the US's version of good manufacturing was getting the required number of vehicles out the door. That's it. If they happened to be right, all the better, but not necessarily required. Quantity is job 1, not quality. Also, the working environment is pathetic. How can a company foster feelings of employee loyalty and desire to produce a good product when EVERY SINGLE encounter with a fellow worker/supervisor is adversarial in nature? It can't. a big part of that adversarial nature is due to the unions. The unions, in their current forms, are archaic and perpetuate the wrong message to the majority of it's constituents: We are working so you can get paid more for working less.

BTW...GMs pention problems are also because of the non-union, "white collar" workers as well.

 

[Art]

Sell cheap, customizable cars online and ship them directly to the customer for the prices they currently offer to dealers? No more test-drives? I can imagine you'd run into some difficulties as it takes a while longer to build a car than it takes to build a computer, but you could still be on to something. If you really believe in this idea, why not find some investors and put together a pitch? Heck, convince me and I'll go find some investors.

I don't know the times for the bodyshop but once the shell reaches the assembly line it only takes approx 1 hour before the finished car is driven away and so it probably actually takes less time to assemble a car than it does a computer. (computers require between 8 and 24 hours burn in and test time which cars do not.)

Fred Garvin-
Actually, if you take into account things like color, 2-door vs. 4 door, engine/drivetrain options, interior options, etc... current vehicle lines are vastly more complicated and flexible in terms of options than a computer.

Again there are actually more configuration options for Dell's computers than there are for cars. Apart from the general offerings to the public Dell have a Dell+ service for business customers whereby the customer can have absolutely anything he specifies included in the configuration.