Laws of area and conservation of momentum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the "laws of area" and their relation to the conservation of momentum, specifically focusing on deriving the expression for dθ. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and implications of these concepts, with an emphasis on differentiation and parametric methods.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in understanding the equation for dθ as presented in their textbook, which involves the terms xdy - ydx and x² + y².
  • Another participant questions the clarity of the term "laws of area" and seeks further context on how it relates to conservation of momentum.
  • A different participant provides a formula for θ as arctan(y/x) and discusses the ambiguity in defining angles based on the quadrant of the coordinate plane.
  • This participant also explains a method to derive dθ without relying on the function θ, using relationships between x, y, r, and dθ.
  • One participant acknowledges their realization of how to differentiate θ to obtain the equation, noting their confusion with parametric methods involving multiplication of x and y.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the clarity of the "laws of area" or their connection to conservation of momentum. Multiple viewpoints and methods for deriving dθ are presented, indicating ongoing exploration and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential ambiguities in defining angles and the methods used for differentiation, as well as the varying interpretations of the laws of area. There are unresolved aspects regarding the application of these concepts to conservation of momentum.

almo
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i am having problem getting the dθ in the laws of area.

what the textbook states is,
dθ=

xdy-ydx
x2+y2

I can't get the equation..
the only thing i could think of is trigo functions, but i got stuck...
any help?
 
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almo,

laws of area and conservation of momentum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am having problem getting the dθ in the laws of area.

what the textbook states is,
dθ=

xdy-ydx
x2+y2

I can't get the equation..
the only thing i could think of is trigo functions, but i got stuck...
any help?

What are you trying to do? What are the "laws of area". What equation are you trying to find? How does the conservation of momentum fit into this?

Ratch
 
"Laws of Area" is vague, but the formula for dtheta is straightforward.

[itex]\theta = \arctan (y/x)+C[/itex]

Here C is an additive constant that depends on 1. Which region of the plane you are in, and 2. How you assign angles to points in the plane. For example, if you define theta to be between 0 and 2pi, then C=0 for (x,y) in the first quadrant, C=pi in the second and third quadrants, and C=2pi in the fourth quadrant. If you define theta to lie between -pi and +pi, then C works differently. But all that is irrelevant, because even though theta as a function of x and y has some ambiguity, no matter what your convention is for assigning angles to points, dtheta is well defined by the formula:

[itex]d\theta = \frac{\partial \theta}{\partial x} dx +\frac{\partial \theta}{\partial y}dy[/itex]

There are ways to derive the formula for dtheta without relying on a formula for theta as a function of x and y. For example, no matter how you assign angles, you have:

[itex]x=r\cos(\theta), \hspace{1cm} y=r\sin(\theta).[/itex]

Use these formulas to calculate dx and dy as linear functions of dr and dtheta (with a basepoint understood to be fixed). You get:

[itex]dx = (x/r)dr -yd\theta,\hspace{1cm} dy= (y/r)dr+xd\theta[/itex].

Multiply the first equation by y, the second equation by x and subtract to obtain:
[itex]ydx - xdy = -(y^2+x^2)d\theta =-r^2d\theta[/itex]
Dividing out the - (r squared) gives you the formula for dtheta.
 
Last edited:
Thanks vargo!.. I figure out to just differentiate theta, which gives me the equation. I am too use to differentiate something against something else, that I forget about some basic stuff.

The parametric method seems quite confusing when multiplication of x and y is involved though, but its brilliant.
 

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