Libyan kangaroos to rule on capital verdict today

[Rach3]

Six innocent foreign medical workers in Libya, detained by unjust kangaroo courts since 1999, are to receive a (possibly capital) verdict later today, 12/19. (Libya is in the same time zone as Paris).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6192033.stm

Medics await Libya court verdict

A court in Libya is to deliver its verdict in the retrial of six foreign medics accused of knowingly infecting hundreds of Libyan children with HIV.

Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty for five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor - who deny charges.
...
The nurses and doctor have already been sentenced to death, but the Supreme Court quashed the ruling last year.

Unprecedently, the presitigious journal Nature published the peer-reviewed results of independent scientists that strongly support the defense. (The court refuses to allow the scientific evidence ot be heard.)

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_science_is_in_the_tripoli.php

Now, in a powerful reply to the Libyan accusations, Nature has published the results of a detailed analysis of the viruses afflicting the children, and the story is clear: the cause of the outbreak was the poor hygiene present at the hospital before the six workers arrived. Here are the major conclusions of the paper:

In 1998, outbreaks of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1) and hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection were reported in children attending Al-Fateh Hospital in Benghazi, Libya. Here we use molecular phylogenetic techniques to analyse new virus sequences from these outbreaks. We find that the HIV-1 and HCV strains were already circulating and prevalent in this hospital and its environs before the arrival in March 1998 of the foreign medical staff (five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor) who stand accused of transmitting the HIV strain to the children.

...Apparently, the scientific evidence which would have exonerated the accused was not allowed in the court. The Gaddafi government continues to live up to its reputation.

Interestingly, the clueless idiots in the State department refer to the Nature study as a "magazine article":

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2006/77435.htm

QUESTION: There's a scientific study published in -- by a British magazine today that would seem to set a scientific basis that those accused in the Libya HIV trial could not be guilty just because of findings that apparently the HIV infections in Libya began far before they were accused of being involved. Is this something that the United States would commend to the Libyan authorities? There was supposed to be a verdict in the second trial coming up within a matter of days. This would seem to be exonerating information. Is that something you would raise with them?

MR. MCCORMACK: Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure we'd bring it up -- bring up a magazine article like that...

 

[Gokul43201]

Medics get death sentence: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6192599.stm

 

[Rach3]

Well, shooting innocent people out of political motivations is not beneath Qaddafi at all. (Or GWB, for that matter).:grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy:

 

[arildno]

Eeh, what does this have to do with kangaroos?

Kangaroo court-I've never heard it before; could someone explain the term for me
(Does it refer to the practice of jumping to conclusions, for example?)

 

[Rach3]

Eeh, what does this have to do with kangaroos?

Kangaroo court-I've never heard it before; could someone explain the term for me
(Does it refer to the practice of jumping to conclusions, for example?)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A kangaroo court is a 'judicial' proceeding that denies proper procedure in the name of expediency; a fraudulent or unjust trial where the decision has essentially been made in advance, usually for the purpose of providing a conviction, either going through the motions of manipulated procedure or allowing no defense at all.

...The term seems not to originate from Australia, the native country of kangaroos as the oldest available evidence stems from the California Gold Rush, with the first written reference in 1853 in a Texas context (also mustang court), from the notion of proceeding "by leaps" like the agile marsupial. It is possible that the phrase arose out of a combination of informal courts convened to deal with "claim jumpers," the many Australian participants in the Gold Rush and a bit of word play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

 

[arildno]

Thank you, Rach3!

 

[Rach3]

I love it how no one bothered to say anything in this thread. "Capital Punishment" in this same forum got four pages, but when innocent women are sentenced to the firing squad, it's not as interesting. Even "Happy Penguins" is a more active political thread than this.

Sort of like how there are no active threads on the many African conflicts/famines (Sudan, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Congo, Ethiopia...) or human rights in Burma or China or Belarus or the death of Pinochet. But anything mentioned on CNN/FOX/BBC is worthwhile discussion, no matter how slight.

 

[MeJennifer]

I love it how no one bothered to say anything in this thread. "Capital Punishment" in this same forum got four pages, but when innocent women are sentenced to the firing squad, it's not as interesting. Even "Happy Penguins" is a more active political thread than this.

Sort of like how there are no active threads on the many African conflicts/famines (Sudan, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Congo, Ethiopia...) or human rights in Burma or China or Belarus or the death of Pinochet. But anything mentioned on CNN/FOX/BBC is worthwhile discussion, no matter how slight.

Well what is there to say?
I find it extremely likely that they did not do anything intentionally wrong but it could very well be possible that they made grave medical errors. However it is hard to judge without knowing all the details.

For instance:
Did they give infected blood to those children? If they did could they reasonably expect that it was infected. And furthermore did they tested it, and if not, why not?
I don't know, do you have more details?

By the way your link to the blog has an invalid link to the Nature article so that does not give any additional info either.

On the one hand we have people who claim that they did not do anything wrong, but on the other hand we have many children who died of AIDS and parents with questions as to how this could have happened.

 

[Gokul43201]

By the way your link to the blog has an invalid link to the Nature article so that does not give any additional info either.

Try this: http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/aidsmedicslibya/index.html

If the link to the pdf file doesn't work, the link to the full text version should.

On the one hand we have people who claim that they did not do anything wrong...

We also have scientific evidence that was not permitted in the court. But then, Science is the weapon of the infidel, ain't it?

Since there's no real question about the legality of the proceedings (by any kind of international standards, it's a blatant sham), one can only question the total lack of foresight in this populist decision. Let's see how many European docs accept volunteer work in Libya over the next decade...

 

[Rach3]

Here's the paper:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/444836a.html
(Nature 444, 658-659 (7 December 2006) | doi:10.1038/444658b; Published online 6 December 2006)

And here's the news article appearing in the same issue of Nature, commenting on that paper:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7120/full/444658b.html

In short: molecular phylogeny (dating the initial infection by how far apart the virii diverged by evolution) says that the HIV infections almost certainly occurred years before the foreign workers entered Libya. Very, very innocent.

MeJennifer - you seem to be missing the context of this case, I recommend you look up the background in news articles or wiki or whatever. Libya is a corrupt dictatorship without a legitimate justice system; backwards hygeine practice caused tragic HIV infections, and politicans are diverting blame by scapegoating foreigners, playing on xenophobia. Many Libyans are tricked into believing them. Finally, Qaddafi may be trying to blackmail European countries, offering to "pardon" the medics in exchange for billions of dollars in "compensation".

This is not a trial; it is a sham. The accuseed where tortured, forced to sign false confessions, and denied the ability to defend themselves - exculpatory scientific evidence was barred from both trial and appeal. It is really critical that Americans figure out for themselves WHY the Benghazi trial is illegitimate; if we're lucky we'll avoid falling to the level of Libya. Note the similarities - it would be perfectly legal for a military official to declare the Bulgarians&Palestinian "enemy combatants" (bioterrorists!), deny them habeas corpus and the right to lawyers, exclude evidence from their defense, detain them indefinitely, and admit confessions signed under torture. Heck, everything Libya's done is technically legal under Guantanamo justice.

 

[MeJennifer]

From the article (bold text by me):

Here we use molecular phylogenetic techniques to analyse new virus sequences from these outbreaks. We find that the HIV-1 and HCV strains were already circulating and prevalent in this hospital and its environs before the arrival in March 1998 of the foreign medical staff (five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor) who stand accused of transmitting the HIV strain to the children.

Ok, so they did not bring a sample with HIV and injected it in lots of children. What else would this test prove?
To me it does not prove that they could not have been negligent.
On the contrary, it seems that some people in the hospital were infected with HIV and that due to negligence of unknown people thay were infected. Now the question is who did it?

Did they perform tests to ensure that any blood given was HIV free?
Did they take precautions in making sure other children were not infected by sterilization procedures?

I am not saying that they are guilty, but to me that scientific evidence does not automatically clear them, it just shows that there were people infected with HIV in that hospital before they arrived.
Or do I miss some points here?

 

[Rach3]

Ok, so they did not bring a sample with HIV and injected it in lots of children. What else would this test prove?
To me it does not prove that they could not have been negligent.

What the heck? Is it the prosecutor's burden to prove guilt, or the defendant's burden to prove innocence of every conceivably possible crime? What kind of bizzaro world are you coming from, that you presume these nurses are guilty of something, just because they're accused? :grumpy:

I am not saying that they are guilty, but to me that scientific evidence does not automatically clear them, it just shows that there were people infected with HIV in that hospital before they arrived.

Which proves they are innocent of the charges against them, namely, of causing the outbreak in the first place. And there is no evidence whatsoever that they killed anyone - so unless you'd like to execute someone for the possibility of comitting a crime, this is a barbaric act.

Now the question is who did it?

It's the third world; the most likely culprit is not murder, but good ol' lack of hygeine:

There was already a body of scientific evidence indicating that the outbreak was caused not by deliberate transmission, but by poor hygiene at the Al-Fateh hospital in Benghazi, where the outbreak took place (see Nature 443, 888–889; 2006). Analysis of hospital records suggested that the outbreak began before the medics arrived. And almost half of the HIV-infected children were also infected with hepatitis B or C, pointing to poor hospital practices as the cause.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7120/full/444658b.html

This hardly makes the Colonel look good, hence the convenience of scapegoating some ugly, scary foreigners.

Or do I miss some points here?

Yes, many.

 

[MeJennifer]

Which proves they are innocent of the charges against them, namely, of causing the outbreak in the first place.

But the point is why did any children get infected while they were there.
Were they in any supervisory position? What was their responsibility in that hospital? What if they were the only once who injected the children?

Again, we don't have all the facts.

And Rach3, the "they are all third world people who don't know anything about hygiene and we are all westerners who are flawless in our decisions" argument is pure and simple prejudice.

 

[Rach3]

And Rach3, the "they are all third world people who don't know anything about hygiene and we are all westerners who are flawless in our decisions" argument is pure and simple prejudice.

This is unfair! The authors of the peer-reviewed Nature article conclude that poor hygeine is most likely, and top experts agree with them. Please don't put words into my mouth like that - I never said or believed that about first-world medical hygeine (especially given the rise of MRSA in western hospitals!).

 

[MeJennifer]

For anybody who is interested here is a http://www.creativehat.com/deadly_injections.htm" related to the case.

 

[Anttech]

Rach3, the reason why there *was* no discussion on this *was* because everyone agreed, do you want us all to jump in and back slap?

MeJennifer has taken up the Mantle, good on her

 

[MeJennifer]

Rach3, the reason why there *was* no discussion on this *was* because everyone agreed, do you want us all to jump in and back slap?

MeJennifer has taken up the Mantle, good on her

Well again, I find it unlikely that they intentionally infected children and even more unlikely that this is some sort of CIA/Mossad scheme.

But again given the info I have I would not completely rule out some culpability of the accused.

 

[Anttech]

I would agree with your stance, but not to the extent of the Death Sentence. Its Insane what they are doing there, I hope some governments get involved, especially the EU.

 

[Anttech]

In fact they better be careful, Bulgaria will be a full member in 12 days

 

[Astronuc]

EU is pondering what actions to take.

Meanwhile - some background - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2087517.ece

. . . five Bulgarian nurses and the Palestinian doctor were, for the second time, sentenced to death by a Libyan court. The verdict was a carbon copy of that handed down by the court in the first trial in May 2004. The foreigners appealed to the Supreme Court and on Christmas Day 2005 the court accepted the appeal and ordered a retrial. The foreign health workers have now been in prison in Libya for nearly seven years, much of that time in degrading conditions. The trial has become by far the longest and most heavily politicised legal process in Libya's history.

It would be unusual for nurses or a doctor to test blood before using it. That usually is done by the supplier, unless the nurses are collecting the blood from the community. I have to wonder of about the source of the contaminated blood and the protocols to protect the blood supply.