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News Libyan kangaroos to rule on capital verdict today

  1. Dec 18, 2006 #1
    Six innocent foreign medical workers in Libya, detained by unjust kangaroo courts since 1999, are to receive a (possibly capital) verdict later today, 12/19. (Libya is in the same time zone as Paris).

    Unprecedently, the presitigious journal Nature published the peer-reviewed results of independent scientists that strongly support the defense. (The court refuses to allow the scientific evidence ot be heard.)

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_science_is_in_the_tripoli.php [Broken]
    Interestingly, the clueless idiots in the State department refer to the Nature study as a "magazine article":

    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 19, 2006 #2


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  4. Dec 19, 2006 #3
    Well, shooting innocent people out of political motivations is not beneath Qaddafi at all. (Or GWB, for that matter).

    :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy:
  5. Dec 19, 2006 #4


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    Eeh, what does this have to do with kangaroos????

    Kangaroo court-I've never heard it before; could someone explain the term for me
    (Does it refer to the practice of jumping to conclusions, for example?)
  6. Dec 19, 2006 #5
  7. Dec 19, 2006 #6


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    Thank you, Rach3!
  8. Dec 19, 2006 #7
    I love it how no one bothered to say anything in this thread. "Capital Punishment" in this same forum got four pages, but when innocent women are sentenced to the firing squad, it's not as interesting. Even "Happy Penguins" is a more active political thread than this.

    Sort of like how there are no active threads on the many African conflicts/famines (Sudan, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Congo, Ethiopia...) or human rights in Burma or China or Belarus or the death of Pinochet. But anything mentioned on CNN/FOX/BBC is worthwhile discussion, no matter how slight.

  9. Dec 19, 2006 #8
    Well what is there to say?
    I find it extremely likely that they did not do anything intentionally wrong but it could very well be possible that they made grave medical errors. However it is hard to judge without knowing all the details.

    For instance:
    Did they give infected blood to those children? If they did could they reasonably expect that it was infected. And furthermore did they tested it, and if not, why not?
    I don't know, do you have more details?

    By the way your link to the blog has an invalid link to the Nature article so that does not give any additional info either.

    On the one hand we have people who claim that they did not do anything wrong, but on the other hand we have many children who died of AIDS and parents with questions as to how this could have happened.
  10. Dec 19, 2006 #9


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    Try this: http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/aidsmedicslibya/index.html

    If the link to the pdf file doesn't work, the link to the full text version should.

    We also have scientific evidence that was not permitted in the court. But then, Science is the weapon of the infidel, ain't it?

    Since there's no real question about the legality of the proceedings (by any kind of international standards, it's a blatant sham), one can only question the total lack of foresight in this populist decision. Let's see how many European docs accept volunteer work in Libya over the next decade...
  11. Dec 19, 2006 #10
    Here's the paper:
    (Nature 444, 658-659 (7 December 2006) | doi:10.1038/444658b; Published online 6 December 2006)

    And here's the news article appearing in the same issue of Nature, commenting on that paper:

    In short: molecular phylogeny (dating the initial infection by how far apart the virii diverged by evolution) says that the HIV infections almost certainly occured years before the foreign workers entered Libya. Very, very innocent.

    MeJennifer - you seem to be missing the context of this case, I recommend you look up the background in news articles or wiki or whatever. Libya is a corrupt dictatorship without a legitimate justice system; backwards hygeine practice caused tragic HIV infections, and politicans are diverting blame by scapegoating foreigners, playing on xenophobia. Many Libyans are tricked into believing them. Finally, Qaddafi may be trying to blackmail European countries, offering to "pardon" the medics in exchange for billions of dollars in "compensation".

    This is not a trial; it is a sham. The accuseed where tortured, forced to sign false confessions, and denied the ability to defend themselves - exculpatory scientific evidence was barred from both trial and appeal. It is really critical that Americans figure out for themselves WHY the Benghazi trial is illegitimate; if we're lucky we'll avoid falling to the level of Libya. Note the similarities - it would be perfectly legal for a military official to declare the Bulgarians&Palestinian "enemy combatants" (bioterrorists!), deny them habeas corpus and the right to lawyers, exclude evidence from their defense, detain them indefinitely, and admit confessions signed under torture. Heck, everything Libya's done is technically legal under Guantanamo justice. :eek:
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  12. Dec 19, 2006 #11
    From the article (bold text by me):

    Ok, so they did not bring a sample with HIV and injected it in lots of children. What else would this test prove?
    To me it does not prove that they could not have been negligent.
    On the contrary, it seems that some people in the hospital were infected with HIV and that due to negligence of unknown people thay were infected. Now the question is who did it?

    Did they perform tests to ensure that any blood given was HIV free?
    Did they take precautions in making sure other children were not infected by sterilization procedures?

    I am not saying that they are guilty, but to me that scientific evidence does not automatically clear them, it just shows that there were people infected with HIV in that hospital before they arrived.
    Or do I miss some points here?
  13. Dec 19, 2006 #12
    What the heck? Is it the prosecutor's burden to prove guilt, or the defendant's burden to prove innocence of every conceivably possible crime? What kind of bizzaro world are you coming from, that you presume these nurses are guilty of something, just because they're accused? :grumpy:

    Which proves they are innocent of the charges against them, namely, of causing the outbreak in the first place. And there is no evidence whatsoever that they killed anyone - so unless you'd like to execute someone for the possibility of comitting a crime, this is a barbaric act.

    It's the third world; the most likely culprit is not murder, but good ol' lack of hygeine:

    This hardly makes the Colonel look good, hence the convenience of scapegoating some ugly, scary foreigners.
    Yes, many.
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  14. Dec 20, 2006 #13
    But the point is why did any children get infected while they were there.
    Were they in any supervisory position? What was their responsibility in that hospital? What if they were the only once who injected the children?

    Again, we don't have all the facts.

    And Rach3, the "they are all third world people who don't know anything about hygiene and we are all westerners who are flawless in our decisions" argument is pure and simple prejudice.
  15. Dec 20, 2006 #14
    This is unfair! The authors of the peer-reviewed Nature article conclude that poor hygeine is most likely, and top experts agree with them. Please don't put words into my mouth like that - I never said or believed that about first-world medical hygeine (especially given the rise of MRSA in western hospitals!).
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2006
  16. Dec 20, 2006 #15
    For anybody who is interested here is a http://www.creativehat.com/deadly_injections.htm" [Broken] related to the case.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  17. Dec 20, 2006 #16
    Rach3, the reason why there *was* no discussion on this *was* because everyone agreed, do you want us all to jump in and back slap? :smile:

    MeJennifer has taken up the Mantle, good on her :smile:
  18. Dec 20, 2006 #17
    Well again, I find it unlikely that they intentionally infected children and even more unlikely that this is some sort of CIA/Mossad scheme.

    But again given the info I have I would not completely rule out some culpability of the accused.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2006
  19. Dec 20, 2006 #18
    I would agree with your stance, but not to the extent of the Death Sentence. Its Insane what they are doing there, I hope some governments get involved, especially the EU.
  20. Dec 20, 2006 #19
    In fact they better be careful, Bulgaria will be a full member in 12 days
  21. Dec 20, 2006 #20


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    EU is pondering what actions to take.

    Meanwhile - some background - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2087517.ece [Broken]

    It would be unusual for nurses or a doctor to test blood before using it. That usually is done by the supplier, unless the nurses are collecting the blood from the community. I have to wonder of about the source of the contaminated blood and the protocols to protect the blood supply.
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