LLNL Claims Cheap Anti-Matter Breakthrough

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around a reported breakthrough by LLNL in the production of antimatter, specifically focusing on its potential for efficient and cost-effective generation. Participants explore the implications of this development for applications in spacecraft propulsion and the challenges associated with antimatter production.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight the potential for using antimatter as a high-energy-density fuel for rocketships, questioning the feasibility of this application.
  • Others argue that the energy required to produce antimatter currently outweighs any potential benefits, citing the prohibitive costs and storage challenges associated with positrons.
  • There is speculation about the possibility of producing anti-protons and significant quantities of anti-hydrogen, though some participants challenge the practicality of these ideas without supporting data.
  • One participant mentions the low absolute energy yield of positrons produced, suggesting that even with high efficiency claims, the actual output remains minimal.
  • Another participant proposes that advancements in laser technology could enhance the production rate of positrons, although this claim is met with requests for evidence.
  • Questions are raised regarding the energy efficiency of the LLNL process and the amount of antimatter required for interstellar travel, specifically to Alpha Centauri.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of skepticism and optimism regarding the LLNL claims, with no consensus reached on the feasibility of practical applications of antimatter production or the validity of the efficiency claims. Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications and challenges of the technology.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the current understanding of energy efficiency and production mechanisms, as well as the need for empirical evidence to support speculative claims about future advancements.

sanman
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Making the round of tech sites everywhere, is news of some LLNL breakthrough that could enable the efficient/cheap production of anti-matter:

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2008/NR-08-11-03.html

Well, seeing as how you can't get a higher-energy-density fuel than matter-antimatter, could this mean we could have rocketships running on the stuff?
 
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No. First, you need energy to make antimatter, and the amount you put in compared to what you get out makes the cost prohibitive. Second, these are positrons, which don't have much mass, and you can't put too many of them in one place before the electric field becomes so large you can no longer store them.
 
Well, they're claiming some unprecedentedly high efficiency.

Furthermore, what if they find a way to do it for anti-protons?

What if significant quantities of anti-hydrogen could be produced?

Furthermore, how much mass would really need to be produced, to become useful for spacecraft ? Not that much, I'd imagine.
 
sanman said:
Well, they're claiming some unprecedentedly high efficiency.

Yes, but it's still low in absolute terms. 100 billion positrons have an energy of 0.008J. If the plasma were obtained by plugging the machine into the wall - say 120 V at 10A for only one second (and I can assure you, it took far more energy than this), the efficiency is 0.0007%.

sanman said:
Furthermore, what if they find a way to do it for anti-protons?

Why would this work for anti-protons? The production mechanisms are completely different. The LLNL group isn't even trying to do this for antiprotons.

sanman said:
What if significant quantities of anti-hydrogen could be produced?

What if I could flap my arms and fly to the moon? You can keep saying "what if", but unless this is grounded in data, you are talking about science fiction, not science. Even a 100 billion positrons is not a substantial amount: a billionth of a microgram.
 
Well, still, it's a positive step, and a tantalizing glimpse at what might be possible in the future.

A short-pulse laser like a femtosecond-pulse laser could make those 100 billion positrons pretty quickly. Your rate of synthesis would probably be limited by how quickly you could put gold targets in front of the laser. If you could automate the process to speed it up and have it going around the clock, then maybe you could produce more than miniscule amounts over an appreciable period of time.

It's not clear to me what the energy efficiency of their process was. Can anyone infer it?

How much anti-matter would one need, in order to send a space probe to Alpha Centauri nearby?
 
sanman said:
A short-pulse laser like a femtosecond-pulse laser could make those 100 billion positrons pretty quickly.

Evidence?

sanman said:
Your rate of synthesis would probably be limited by how quickly you could put gold targets in front of the laser.

Evidence?

sanman said:
If you could automate the process to speed it up and have it going around the clock, then maybe you could produce more than miniscule amounts over an appreciable period of time.

Evidence?
 

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