London Shooting: What would you have do?

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What would you have done?


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Facts found out about De Menzes after the event are irrelevant. All the man behind the gun knew was the risk to 100's of passengers, and it wasn't just based on colour but every unfortunate, almost freak, circumstance preceding that. I can't emphasize this enough but you are entitled to your opinions as this is afterall a debate.

Another question that's bugging me is why he started running over the ticket barriers. All the underground stations I've been through (and i've been through quite a few) have the barriers in a large area which then lead round a corner to long escalator with maybe another tunnel beyond. There is no chance of hearing, let alone seeing a tube train from the barriers. From the pics of the Stockwell layout this appears to be the same. And considering how often the tube trains arrive what was going on???
 
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So, you agree that first and foremost, we must choose to analyze the situation in such a manner that to the best of our ability, we may regard the version given by the police either as the truth or a concoction of lies?
Yes we do need to analyse why this tragedy happened, but only when the FACTS have come out. As of yet i have seen far too much assumption on what happened.

I am not defending the way the operation was handled, i am only defending the police officers who where on the ground at the time, and as far as I and almost every other brit is concerned the officers did the right thing, but their superiors ****ed up by letting the situation get that far.
 
arildno
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Delta said:
Facts found out about De Menzes after the event are irrelevant.
Not at all; they are crucial in assessing the veracity of the police's own statements.
All the man behind the gun knew was the risk to 100's of passengers, and it wasn't just based on colour but every unfortunate, almost freak, circumstance preceding that. I can't emphasize this enough but you are entitled to your opinions as this is afterall a debate.
These are merely exonerations given after the event. They cannot be regarded as reliable info.
Another question that's bugging me is why he started running over the ticket barriers.
You would also have done that if you had no idea the ones chasing you were police, but believing them to be a gang of murderous thugs out to get you.
Then you would have run; you would have been TERRIFIED, with good reason.

Again, De Menzes was INNOCENT!
Don't you understand why precisely that little piece of info that's been bugging you simply doesn't rhyme with the official reason given you?
 
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vanesch
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Andy said:
How do you know that they are lying? Show me some evidence that is 100% guarenteed. Until then i see there is no point trying to have a discussion with people that arent prepared to see things from the police perspective. Imagine yourself trying to decide whether this guy was innocent or not remembering that you have absolutely no knowledge of who this guy is.
I think you're missing the point. The discussion is not whether the police, based upon the information they had, made a decision which was wrong but understandable. The point is, given the fact that de Mendez is a normal man with a job, not a criminal etc... it doesn't make sense to claim that he ran away from correctly identified policemen. He ran, but for another reason, which could be one of 2 things: 1) he didn't see the policemen at all, he just ran for his train (so they DIDN'T identify themselves correctly and clearly) ; 2) he SAW the policemen but thought they were thugs with guns (so they DIDN'T identify themselves correctly and clearly).
The other point is that in the first declarations, the man was described as being more suspicious than he actually was: why would they say that he wore a long thick coat if that wasn't actually the case: if it is THE ELEMENT that makes you decide he's a potential bomber, you DON'T make a mistake about it. It is a bit like you said: "he was threatening me with a machine gun, sir, that's why I had to shoot!" and when evidence points out that the man didn't have such a machine gun after all, you say, "oh, well, maybe it was a cigarette". That's not the same thing as saying: "I think he had a moustache", and then it turns out that he didn't. That's understandable. But not if it is one of the main elements that made you make your decision to shoot.
 
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Delta, facts the POLICE found about De Mendez is irrelevant. We may have received the facts later, the officer in pursuit may have found out about it later, but the police organization ought to have known a few simple facts about the guy they suspected. Why else did they suspect him?
 
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Andy said:
I am not defending the way the operation was handled, i am only defending the police officers who where on the ground at the time, and as far as I and almost every other brit is concerned the officers did the right thing, but their superiors ****ed up by letting the situation get that far.
No, you are defending them on the assumption that they are telling the truth.
We already have more than enough facts and reasonable deductions to regard their telling the truth as highly improbable.
 
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Because he was followed from a house under surveilance.

Vanesch, your assuming to much just like everybody else. We are never going to know what de menzes was thinking when he chose to run and we are never going to find out whether the police identified themselves or whether de menzes understood them or not.
 
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We already have more than enough facts
What facts? The only fact that is relevant to the action the police took is that he didnt have a bomb, but at the time the police could not know whether he did or didnt have a bomb.
 
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Andy:
You and Delta are clinging yourself to the fantasy that the police always tells the truth.

The facts already known, and standard scientific knowledge of human psychology makes it highly improbable that the police is telling the truth.
 
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So, why are we having this discussion, Andy? Obviously we cannot know what other people think, but we can argue our way to a more or less probable course of action. That's what this is all about.
 
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Andy said:
What facts? The only fact that is relevant to the action the police took is that he didnt have a bomb, but at the time the police could not know whether he did or didnt have a bomb.
These facts shows that we had to do with a normal man with the ability to hold a steady job.
The next step is to apply standard scientific psychological reasoning as to how De Menzes would react if the police's version is true.
 
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arildno said:
The facts already known
What facts???

arildno said:
You and Delta are clinging yourself to the fantasy that the police always tells the truth.
I think you're being clung to conspiracy theories. That the marksmen in question was some bent trigger happy copper, protected by corrupt authorities.

I agree with the results of the poll, that if I was in their shoes with the limited information I would of had, the events of july 7 and 21, the risk of 100's of deaths in the tube ahead, a shoot to kill was the only option to that officer.

I repeat however we are all entitled to our opinions.
 
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Andy said:
Vanesch, your assuming to much just like everybody else. We are never going to know what de menzes was thinking when he chose to run and we are never going to find out whether the police identified themselves or whether de menzes understood them or not.
Yes, that's true. However, given the fact that OTHER, verifiable factual information was initially erroneous (the coat), what makes you believe that de menzes' behaviour was different from what you expect from a normal man, just in order to fit the explanations of the police ?
If you know that your wife is a normal woman, you have a good relationship and she has a small green car, and someone comes and tells you that he shot your wife in her red sportscar (we had to, she was driving away soo fast), because she's a prostitute working for the mafia and she was going to kill the Queen, you can say: "****, Carol a prostitute working for the mafia ?? Planning to kill the Queen ? Never thought that of her !"
And later you find out she's killed in her small green car, and you tell that to the policeman, he just says ; ah, yes, true, after all, she didn't have a red sportscar in which she drove away quickly...
And you say: "yeah, we'll never know whether and why she planned to kill the Queen"
...

come on !
 
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Delta said:
What facts???




I agree with the results of the poll, that if I was in their shoes with the limited information I would of had, the events of july 7 and 21, the risk of 100's of deaths in the tube ahead, a shoot to kill was the only option to that officer.

I repeat however we are all entitled to our opinions.
Again, you are confusing verified facts with statements to be verified.

The police's report as to what they knew or did is NOT facts; they are statements whose veracity needs to be made probable.
 
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Again i ask you to present these so called facts. I may be assuming that the police's version is correct, but for what reason do you have to doubt why they followed him from the flat to the station? It appears to me that your assuming everything the police has said is a lie.

I put it down to piss poor communication between the officers on the ground and their superiors. And the superior officer not knowing what to do until it got too late and they had run out of options.

Bottom line is, they should have raided the flat. but they didnt. They should have stopped him before he got to the station, but they didnt. After those two options had been missed for whatever reason the only action left was to challenge de menzes. Now for a reason that we will never no and can only ever endlessly speculate upon de menzes decided to run. For the officers on the ground this would have looked like he had something to hide and maybe he did, maybe he thought they where immigration control? or maybe he owed some people some money? The reasons why he ran are pretty endless. But because he ran away it forced the officers into taking the decision to kill him.
 
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vanesch
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Andy said:
Bottom line is, they should have raided the flat. but they didnt. They should have stopped him before he got to the station, but they didnt. After those two options had been missed for whatever reason the only action left was to challenge de menzes.
And maybe they didn't ! The point is, chances are high that they DIDN'T challenge him, but JUST JUMPED UPON him when he started to run and with some rare enjoyment, blew his brains out. "Take this, you ****ing brownie suicide bomber!"

Now for a reason that we will never no and can only ever endlessly speculate upon de menzes decided to run.
This is correct. The one reason that's almost for sure NOT the case, is that he was confronted with correctly identified policemen.

For the officers on the ground this would have looked like he had something to hide and maybe he did, maybe he thought they where immigration control?
He was a legal immigrant with a pasport. I'm also a legal immigrant in France. If the French gendarmerie would point a gun at me, and identify themselves as such, it would not cross my mind to start running ! I might gently and calmly ask them not to point a gun at me, though, explaining that I'm not a criminal, that I'm not armed or anything, and that accidents do happen. EDIT: EVEN if I didn't pay my last parking ticket !

or maybe he owed some people some money? The reasons why he ran are pretty endless.
That's true. The only one that can be eliminated is that he knew he was challenged by correctly identified armed policemen.

But because he ran away it forced the officers into taking the decision to kill him.
That must have been the explanation that came to mind of the police, once the adrenaline level went down, and they saw themselves obliged to explain why they blew the brains out of the skull of a guy they just held down on the floor. It was a kick all right, but now they needed to do the paperwork.
 
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Andy said:
Now for a reason that we will never no and can only ever endlessly speculate upon de menzes decided to run.
Are you asuming we will never se the videos from the security cameras????
 
Oh wow... I feel sorry for all you poor Londoners now. You're all apearantly at the mercy of a gang of racist liars and conspirators who get their jollies by blowing people's brains out and who have apearantly earned themselves a liscence to kill whom ever they please. :rolleyes:
 
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vanesch
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TheStatutoryApe said:
Oh wow... I feel sorry for all you poor Londoners now. You're all apearantly at the mercy of a gang of racist liars and conspirators who get their jollies by blowing people's brains out and who have apearantly earned themselves a liscence to kill whom ever they please. :rolleyes:
I'm just extrapolating to how *I* would be, having a big gun and a license to kill :biggrin: . Not all day long, but just once, blowing someone's brain out MUST be a hell of an thrilling experience. A bit like the first time I went to Germany, where there is no speed limit on the highway. Of course I went up to the max speed of my car ! Now, after an hour or so, you become reasonable, and you say that driving at 210 km/h is not a healthy thing to do if you want to get back home safely.
 
vanesch said:
I'm just extrapolating to how *I* would be, having a big gun and a license to kill :biggrin: . Not all day long, but just once, blowing someone's brain out MUST be a hell of an thrilling experience. A bit like the first time I went to Germany, where there is no speed limit on the highway. Of course I went up to the max speed of my car ! Now, after an hour or so, you become reasonable, and you say that driving at 210 km/h is not a healthy thing to do if you want to get back home safely.
So ... do you think he got it out of his system then?

What about the other few thousand members of the forces? Do they have to experience the thrill too?

Mmmmm .... Feel the burn.

I can see the new recruiting ads now.

I must admit that when I read your little paragraph, I was sort of waiting for the guy from Saturday Night Live to say, "Don't you hate it when that happens?"
 
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The Smoking Man said:
So ... do you think he got it out of his system then?
The possibility also exists that the policeman who shot was completely panicking ("gosh, imagine it is a bomber, I'll never see my kids again if he goes off now ; BANGBANGBANGBANG... ; ... ; ohmy! What have I done ? Joe, tell me, I needed to shoot, right ? He COULD have blown us up, right ? ") ; in which case he must be in a bad shape right now, and his collegues are trying to covering up the thing so that on top of that he doesn't get punished or so ("Don't worry, Jack, you did what you thought was right, we'll fix that. **** happens")
But given the claimed superduper profile of highly trained professionals, such a "panicking" image is a bit hard to understand. So either they have given guns, licences and instructions to badly trained people who, up to that moment, were used to write out parking tickets, or something else is going on.

What about the other few thousand members of the forces? Do they have to experience the thrill too?
There are a lot of immigrants in London. Enough for everybody, no need to fight !


I can see the new recruiting ads now.
I remember a long time ago a funny add for a lawyer office: "pull that trigger now, and call us later"
 
vanesch
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I propose, as a punishment for the policeman who shot, that he has to cross all London subway stations with brown paint on his face, a long thick coat, a backpack and a belt with wires coming out of it...
After that day, we forget about the incident :biggrin:
 
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The one reason that's almost for sure NOT the case
How do you know that for sure?
 

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