Mass shooting in N Illinois University

[Economist]

Here's a funny clip from the documentary I've been talking about:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7744186715705123862&q=michael+and+me+larry+elder&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[Cyrus]

Its beyond silly to say concealed weapons would have stopped this.

 

[Economist]

Its beyond silly to say concealed weapons would have stopped this.

I never said it would have "stopped" this. However, I do stand by a couple claims.

1) It may have decreased the chance/likelihood of it happening in the first place.

2) Instead of 4 people being shot, maybe it would have only been 2.

3) At Virginia Tech, instead of 32 people being injured or killed, maybe it would have been more like 5 - 10.

 

[drankin]

The death penalty is not a deterrent, so why would concealed guns be any different?

It is more of a deterrent because it is immediate. Potential death penalty vs. death right now. The death penalty can take a decade before being carried out. Looking down the barrel of a gun held by your wrong choice in murder victims could knock several years off of that.

 

[Cyrus]

College students are idiots. I wouldn't want them to all be walking around with guns. What you have said still does not change anything. A person could pull a gun at random and kill a few people. THATS the problem. Not stopping them from killing 32 down to 5 or 10.

 

[drankin]

Its beyond silly to say concealed weapons would have stopped this.

Well, if you were in that classroom, wouldn't you rather be armed than not? I know I would. If I weren't the first person shot (being caught unawares), there is a good chance I wouldn't be getting shot at all. And I could very well have prevented someone else getting killed.

 

[drankin]

College students are idiots. I wouldn't want them to all be walking around with guns. What you have said still does not change anything. A person could pull a gun at random and kill a few people. THATS the problem. Not stopping them from killing 32 down to 5 or 10.

If wearing a seat belt saves x amount more lives during horrible crashes, then it makes sense to wear a seat belt. It won't save everyone but it will save MORE. Let's start with what we can do now and not wait and figure out why there are so many nutjobs in the world.

 

[Cyrus]

Well, if you were in that classroom, wouldn't you rather be armed than not? I know I would. If I weren't the first person shot (being caught unawares), there is a good chance I wouldn't be getting shot at all. And I could very well have prevented someone else getting killed.

No. This isn't the wild wild west.

The people who should walk around with guns are: Pilots, police man, and military.

John Q. Public can have all the guns he or she wants, locked away in a gun safe and taken out when going to a shooting range for practice or defending your home\country.

I don't need 260 million self proclaimed police men walking around this country.

 

[drankin]

No. This isn't the wild wild west.

The people who should walk around with guns are: Pilots, police man, and military.

What the hell are you talking about "wild wild west"? What country do you live in? I have a carry permit, I'm no cowboy.

 

[drankin]

No. This isn't the wild wild west.

The people who should walk around with guns are: Pilots, police man, and military.

John Q. Public can have all the guns he or she wants, locked away in a gun safe and taken out when going to a shooting range for practice or defending your home\country.

I don't need 260 million self proclaimed police men walking around this country.

And I'm walking around the country...

 

[Cyrus]

If wearing a seat belt saves x amount more lives during horrible crashes, then it makes sense to wear a seat belt. It won't save everyone but it will save MORE. Let's start with what we can do now and not wait and figure out why there are so many nutjobs in the world.

I don't see how you are comparing a seat belt to people walking around with guns.

 

[Cyrus]

And I'm walking around the country...

Yeah, but just because you're responsible as a gun owner, does not mean all 260 million other americans will be. In fact, I think violence would go up due to people with short tempers shooting each other over stupid arguments.

 

[jostpuur]

I'm sure that was a gun-free zone... how on Earth could this happen? When will we learn?

US has worse school shooting problem than rest of the world. US is also the only country where it is legal to carry guns, and where hence it is easier to obtain guns. You learn when you see the connection between these two facts. Meanwhile, I'm glad I'm safely outside US and I'm going to get shot less likely than you.

 

[Cyrus]

US has worse school shooting problem than rest of the world. US is also the only country where it is legal to carry guns, and where hence it is easier to obtain guns. You learn when you see the connection between these two facts. Meanwhile, I'm glad I'm safely outside US and I'm going to get shot less likely than you.

You might not get shot, but that does not mean you won't get killed. Dead is dead.

 

[drankin]

Yeah, but just because you're responsible as a gun owner, does not mean all 260 million other americans will be. In fact, I think violence would go up due to people with short tempers shooting each other over stupid arguments.

Millions of people are permit carriers right now. Most states allow students with permits to carry on campus. You don't hear about those people shooting people because of arguments as you suggested. Sure, they could, but it isn't happening. You do understand that in order to have a permit, you are fingerprinted, FBI background checked, and in most states have to take a certified firearms course of some kind. Not just any joker walking the street can carry. I've looked for statistics on weapons related crimes committed by concealed carry permit holders and I can't find any.

 

[drankin]

US has worse school shooting problem than rest of the world. US is also the only country where it is legal to carry guns, and where hence it is easier to obtain guns. You learn when you see the connection between these two facts. Meanwhile, I'm glad I'm safely outside US and I'm going to get shot less likely than you.

Yes, I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that since THERE ARE MORE GUNS, don't restrict the law abiding folks the ability to defend themselves. I'm glad you are safely outside the US as well. I'm dodging bullets over here daily

 

[Oerg]

Life is a bit different over there. I'm sure there are other factors that contribute to the peaceful schools you have. Less condensed populations. If we had the exact same laws as you folks have, I doubt you would see much of reduction in this kind of craziness.

Where I live (Singapore), even firing a firearm warrants a death sentence. The last incident of a firearm related crime was about a decade ago. When the disincentive of getting a gun becomes incredibly high, the black market will more or less become almost non existent.

Furthermore, guns which are stricted to law enforcement agents ensure that these agents are always equipped to mroe than overpower any potentially violent criminal.

 

[Cyrus]

Im glad I dont live in singapore.

That is both cruel and unusual.

Also, your argument does not hold water. Murder has a death sentence. People kill all the time.

 

[drankin]

Where I live (Singapore), even firing a firearm warrants a death sentence. The last incident of a firearm related crime was about a decade ago. When the disincentive of getting a gun becomes incredibly high, the black market will more or less become almost non existent.

Furthermore, guns which are stricted to law enforcement agents ensure that these agents are always equipped to mroe than overpower any potentially violent criminal.

Totally safe place to live, unless you say something against how your government is running things...

 

[Cyrus]

I would be VERY surpsied if even ONE person had a carry on weapon here at campus, and I would make it illegal for him to have a weapon on campus. This isn't a shooting range. There simply is no need to have a gun on a college campus.

 

[drankin]

I would be VERY surpsied if even ONE person had a carry on weapon here at campus, and I would make it illegal for him to have a weapon on campus. This isn't a shooting range. There simply is no need to have a gun on a college campus.

If it's legal where you are at, you can bet there a few (hence the word "concealed"). It's not like we go around advertising that we are armed. How exactly would you make it illegal for them?

 

[Cyrus]

Gun on campus = expulsion. No ifs ands or buts.

 

[||spoon||]

I agree with Cyrus. You can't fight fire with fire, if you try the whole place will burn to the ground.

If students are allowed to buy, own and conceal a weapon whose only purpose is to kill/seriously harm another person then if nothing else... Dont allow them to be brought to schools.

 

[Huckleberry]

Except we didn't have a rash of incidents like this back when gun laws were more lax. It doesn't really support that it's the gun laws or availability that are the issue.

But, even when gun laws were more lax (or nonexistent), you didn't have college students walking around carrying sidearms either, so the other argument to allow people to have more concealed carry permits for self defense doesn't work either. And, since this shooter supposedly committed suicide at the end, that too suggests it would be no deterrent or threat that someone else might shoot him first.

To me, this really is more of a cultural mentality shift that we have more of these crazies showing up on campuses at all. Perhaps we've become too tolerant of disruptive and antisocial behavior in schools that we don't notice the budding psychopath?

I generally agree with this. I would say that this type of psycopath is a coward and will try to find targets that are defenseless. If they knew there was a gun in a class and not another they would go to the class with no gun. I don't think it is a good idea to turn schools into gun shows, but I think armed security might not be such a bad idea.

I agree that the major issue is the mentality shift in our culture. The shooters should be held responsible for their heinous actions, but we should also look at how we allow the abusive conditions that create these psycopaths. If a persons dignity is attacked in public and private and nothing is done to protect them, then I understand why it would be difficult for these people to act in a dignified manner. I am concerned about the level of consideration for others in US society.

 

[drankin]

I agree with Cyrus. You can't fight fire with fire, if you try the whole place will burn to the ground.

If students are allowed to buy, own and conceal a weapon whose only purpose is to kill/seriously harm another person then if nothing else... Dont allow them to be brought to schools.

Well, they are bought for personal protection and everyday folks shouldn't be denied that right to defend themselves, particularly when they are somewhere they are spending so much time. And fortunately, most states recognize that.

 

[||spoon||]

Well, they are bought for personal protection and everyday folks shouldn't be denied that right to defend themselves, particularly when they are somewhere they are spending so much time. And fortunately, most states recognize that.

But if proper reasonable measures were enforced so that no one can take weapons to school what would be the point. Schools should not be a place where someone feels the need to protect themselves in the first place.

What you suggest is not a solution to the problem... It just gives the POSSIBILITY that less people will die (which I doubt) when the problem actually arises. Why not come up with something so that there isn't a problem in the first place...

 

[Cyrus]

Well, they are bought for personal protection and everyday folks shouldn't be denied that right to defend themselves, particularly when they are somewhere they are spending so much time. And fortunately, most states recognize that.

Most universities have campus police (we do). There is no need for 'personal protection' with a gun. (We still have a lot of crimes on campus, mostly by outside people who come here to rob).

I really am against people walking around the streets with guns who are not police.

Q: You see a little old lady being mugged on the street. What do you do with your gun? Are you going to step in and play the role of police officer?

 

[drankin]

Most universities have campus police (we do). There is no need for 'personal protection' with a gun. (We still have a lot of crimes on campus, mostly by outside people who come here to rob).

I really am against people walking around the streets with guns who are not police.

Q: You see a little old lady being mugged on the street. What do you do with your gun? Are you going to step in and play the role of police officer?

I get that from you. Luckily, our founding fathers didn't feel the same.

 

[Cyrus]

No, our founding fathers intended us to have guns to fight against government oppression; hence, why I said one should have as many guns they want in their home. They did not say you could walk around with guns playing police man every time you see a crime; which, quite frankly, I think a lot of people would do if everyone were carrying a gun.

 

[Yonoz]

Personally, if I'm ever in a situation like this, I'll be the first to the rush the bastard. If I die in the process, so be it. The guy right behind me won't, and that'll be the end of it.

You ever been shot at?
I'm not saying you wouldn't do it, but you can't judge people who flee deranged gunmen until you've experienced something similar. It can be stressful to the point of paralysis.